Capstone Cleaning Chemical or Physical?

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, SimonJ said:

I've just thread this entire thread with interest.

Maybe it would be worth repeating your test but with the wet'n'dry paper "Wet" 

Wet  wet and and dry just gjves a finer finish, just tends to float the removed particles, like oil or water used to lubricate a sharpening stone. I assume the scratches will just be finer. It was more about finding out how tough a jewel is. The real purpose of the experiment when finished  is to see if ordinary paper scratches a jewel as it has been suggested. Or if there was another cause for the scratches found.

[mikepilk]

So far we've proved that something harder than a jewel can scratch a jewel, yippee.

I await the proof that a bit of paper can.

[VWatchie]

On 7/25/2023 at 1:54 PM, mikepilk said:

So far we've proved that something harder than a jewel can scratch a jewel, yippee.

I await the proof that a bit of paper can.

Knowledge is never a burden, and it's fun to explore and learn about the physics of the world we're living in. So, I commend the efforts to experiment and share the experiences and observations made.

Anyway, for cleaning the flat side of cap jewels I'd recommend watchmaker's tissue paper. It is simply unnecessary to take any risks, like using common printing paper (although my own experiment indicates it's perfectly safe) when there is nothing to gain from it except for perhaps a bit of convenience.

[Klassiker]

I use roll-your-own cigarette papers. Hold your breath!

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Knowledge is never a burden, and it's fun to explore and learn about the physics of the world we're living in. So, I commend the efforts to experiment and share the experiences and observations made.

Anyway, for cleaning the flat side of cap jewels I'd recommend watchmaker's tissue paper. It is simply unnecessary to take any risks, like using common printing paper (although my own experiment indicates it's perfectly safe) when there is nothing to gain from it except for perhaps a bit of convenience.

I think its good to cover all angles of a test. Scratching the jewel with wet and dry was a pretty obvious outcome but I'm sure somewhere it had been suggested that it wouldn’t, so that just seemed like a good place to start.  I did try using plain paper from a notepad 3 times on 3 different jewels, i couldn't see any damage at x100 magnification. I thought about metal fibres that may become mixed in with paper pulp, so i tried to mark a jewel with a craft knife blade. After shooting it a few inches across my bench a couple of times i stopped before losing it. Under the same magnification i also could not see any damage. Still might be inconclusive but i do feel reasonably confident to continue with a notepad. The jewel must still be rinsed afterwards. 

2 hours ago, Klassiker said:

I use roll-your-own cigarette papers. Hold your breath!

Who would think cleaning a jewel on paper could cause controversy  eh ?

[valentime01]

I am using a very similar technique, but with some small difference. First rinse in IPA (or Hexane lately), then rubbing flat side on the piece of the watch paper, half time on the moist area, then moving to the dry surface of the same sheet of paper. The difference is that I use a small piece of the watch paper on the top of the cap jewel and my finger goes on the top of the paper. Internal friction between two papers works fine to eliminate any jewel escape and allows finger to feel the jewel while rubbing.

[mikepilk]

I've always used watchmaker's tissue to rub the cap jewels on, but as @Neverenoughwatches complains, it's easy to crinkle up. I hadn't thought of using Post It notes - I like the idea, they will stay stuck down as you rub. So now we know paper isn't going to scratch jewels () I'm going to switch to using them.

[Waggy]

On 8/2/2023 at 11:25 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Who would think cleaning a jewel on paper could cause controversy  eh ?

I think that the controversy lies in the fact that watchmaking is a blend of art and a science/engineering, hence, there are some clear best practice's and others which are more personal or based upon experience, rather than hard science. To illustrate my point (pun intended) both da Vinci and van Gough painted good pictures, but went about it in their own way. Similarly, with watch repair some practice's are universal and others are more nuanced and personal.

Cleaning jewels is a great example, we all know they need to be cleaned, and I myself use post-it notes after a soak in naphtha, then another soak. This is a practical and proven solution for me. However, this may not be the case for someone else, but arguing about it is as pointless as arguing if van Gough or da Vinci had the correct painting style.

Just my opinion, I don't mean to 'fan the flames' 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Waggy

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I think that the controversy lies in the fact that watchmaking is a blend of art and a science/engineering, hence, there are some clear best practice's and others which are more personal or based upon experience, rather than hard science. To illustrate my point (pun intended) both da Vinci and van Gough painted good pictures, but went about it in their own way. Similarly, with watch repair some practice's are universal and others are more nuanced and personal.

Cleaning jewels is a great example, we all know they need to be cleaned, and I myself use post-it notes after a soak in naphtha, then another soak. This is a practical and proven solution for me. However, this may not be the case for someone else, but arguing about it is as pointless as arguing if van Gough or da Vinci had the correct painting style.

Just my opinion, I don't mean to 'fan the flames' 

I completely agree, i mentioned something way back on this thread about the variables in an experiment. The biggest being the experimenter's perception of the result, no one person is all right, no one person is all wrong. My quote was mostly just a quip, mostly. Some folk seem to have an air of tetchyness if they think they are being questioned . Hey everyone likes to think they are right, right ?

[Waggy]

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hey everyone likes to think they are right, right ?

You are absolutely right!

[VWatchie]

On 8/2/2023 at 9:25 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Who would think cleaning a jewel on paper could cause controversy  eh ?

It did? I never noticed! 

[VWatchie]

I have a new theory as to why I got the impression that regular printer paper scratches the flat side of the cap jewel. It may have been that the jewel I polished on the printer paper was treated with Fixodrop or covered with some other material. Since regular printer paper is considerably rougher than watchmaker's tissue paper (to scrape off a fair amount of black lead from the tip of the pencil) the rougher paper surface created traces in the material that the cap jewel was covered with, instead of cleaning the entire surface. I may have perceived these traces as scratches on the surface of the cap jewel.
If my theory is correct, I think it makes a good argument for cleaning the flat surfaces of cap jewels with watchmaker's tissue paper.

[dadistic]

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

If my theory is correct, I think it makes a good argument for cleaning the flat surfaces of cap jewels with watchmaker's tissue paper.

I have had good success doing that. I find sometimes cleaning the cap jewels does not get all of the residue on them, and the watch paper does a good job of getting any remnant contamination. Never had a scratch from doing that. I'm also careful to use a new, clean sheet, don't want any debris rubbing against the jewel.

Cheers!

[RichardHarris123]

Shouldn't the material the cap jewel is covered in be removed? 

[mikepilk]

9 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I have a new theory as to why I got the impression that regular printer paper scratches the flat side of the cap jewel. It may have been that the jewel I polished on the printer paper was treated with Fixodrop or covered with some other material. 

I like you theory. It sounds plausible. Looking with the microscope it seems that Fixodrop is easily rubbed off with pegwood.

I agree with @RichardHarris123 - I've switched from tissue paper to Post It notes because they are rougher and should remove any old crud/fixodrop (and don't slide around). 

I'm not sure if a quick dunk in IPA is enough to remove Fixodrop. Sometimes if I have to take the pallets out, I'll give it a quick dunk in IPA, and I'm not sure if I need to reapply Fixodrop?

 

[VWatchie]

13 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I've switched from tissue paper to Post It notes because they are rougher and should remove any old crud/fixodrop (and don't slide around).

I think that will require more pressure on the jewel making it more likely to ping. If you go too gently with the rougher printing paper/Post It notes I suspect only part of the flat surface will be sufficiently cleaned (unless you press hard and long enough). Again, just an idea that I haven't tried to prove.

13 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I'm not sure if a quick dunk in IPA is enough to remove Fixodrop. Sometimes if I have to take the pallets out, I'll give it a quick dunk in IPA, and I'm not sure if I need to reapply Fixodrop?

It should be easy to determine as the oil behaves very differently with and w/o Fixodrop. By the way, I know Eveflex removes Fixodrop very easily. Personally, I never let the pallets anywhere near IPA. In my experience shellac and IPA don't go well together at all. In my experience, the shellac starts to soften after just a few seconds. Anyway, this has previously been discussed at length and it seems impossible to come to some sort of consensus around the topic of shellac and IPA.

Anyway, my guess is that a quick dip in IPA won't affect the epilame unless the pallet stones are subjected to some sort of mechanical cleaning as well, such as brushing them or dipping them in Rodico.

Edited September 3, 2023 by VWatchie