Regulator Pins Width

[jdrichard]

Here’s the situation. I have a 992 Hamilton movement that now has an amplitude of 250 in a beat error of 0.33, after adjusting the hair spring and the backing pins. This is all great but the watch was and still is running at -500 seconds per day. I’m not sure if adjusting the baking pins will fix us as I think they’re fairly far apart. I was thinking of wedging a piece of material, and where the hair spring goes through the banking pins and checking if the watch will run faster. Any suggestions would really help before I start thinking of removing weight from the balance, which would make no sense if this wasn’t an issue 100 years ago.

[nickelsilver]

The regulator pins should have a gap just large enough to allow the regulator to move without binding on the hairspring. Are you sure you have 250 amplitude? What lift angle are you using? It would be in the low 40s or high 30s on this piece. 500s a day would be a lot even if the gap it too large, unless it's really large and also if the amplitude is lower than thought. It could be that the hairspring isn't even touching them when running. Solution is to close the pins. Is it stable at -500 in several positions, 2 horizontal and 4 vertical?

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, jdrichard said:

Here’s the situation. I have a 992 Hamilton movement that now has an amplitude of 250 in a beat error of 0.33, after adjusting the hair spring and the backing pins. This is all great but the watch was and still is running at -500 seconds per day. I’m not sure if adjusting the baking pins will fix us as I think they’re fairly far apart. I was thinking of wedging a piece of material, and where the hair spring goes through the banking pins and checking if the watch will run faster. Any suggestions would really help before I start thinking of removing weight from the balance, which would make no sense if this wasn’t an issue 100 years ago.

You are correct, I did forget to change the lift angle in the etimer software. Amplitude went down to 220 but with only a partial wind on the mainspring.  Will close the regulator pins. And technique you could share for not screwing this up.

32 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The regulator pins should have a gap just large enough to allow the regulator to move without binding on the hairspring. Are you sure you have 250 amplitude? What lift angle are you using? It would be in the low 40s or high 30s on this piece. 500s a day would be a lot even if the gap it too large, unless it's really large and also if the amplitude is lower than thought. It could be that the hairspring isn't even touching them when running. Solution is to close the pins. Is it stable at -500 in several positions, 2 horizontal and 4 vertical?

New data. Hamilton 992 LA is 48 deg

34 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The regulator pins should have a gap just large enough to allow the regulator to move without binding on the hairspring. Are you sure you have 250 amplitude? What lift angle are you using? It would be in the low 40s or high 30s on this piece. 500s a day would be a lot even if the gap it too large, unless it's really large and also if the amplitude is lower than thought. It could be that the hairspring isn't even touching them when running. Solution is to close the pins. Is it stable at -500 in several positions, 2 horizontal and 4 vertical?

As well, when looking at the SLO-Mo of the balance, I have a swing of around 460 degrees.

[Neverenoughwatches]

33 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

Will close the regulator pins. And technique you could share for not screwing this up.

Watcha JD , nah you wont screw up, ive seen you demonstrate vibrating a hairspring. A big gap between the hairspring and regulator pins is going to send the timing right back to the stud, Making the timing much slower than it would be if the pins where at the active point of the hairspring ( maybe not 500 seconds though )  Thinking about what Nicklesilver said if the timing is very stable in vertical positions then the pins are so far apart that the timing is constant at the stud. How did i do Nicklesilver ?

[oldhippy]

Why did you adjust the banking pins, that is one thing that should be left alone. 

[jdrichard]

Update: I did move the regulating pins closer and that made a bit of a change.  Then I tried to simply remove 2 balance screws.  When to +1500 seconds/day. Then I simply screwed the quarter screws in all the way and the mean time screws as well and got to -55 seconds with the regulator arm all the way over to Fast. Last thing I could do is either change the meantime screws to lighter screws or undercut the Quarter screws. Thoughts?  This is a job for someone and I have lost a fortune in hours:)  video on YouTube later today.

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

Why did you adjust the banking pins, that is one thing that should be left alone. 

They were at a 40 deg angle to the parallel. Obviously played with by someone else. It improve the beat error considerably.

[nickelsilver]

Are the regulator pins gapped correctly? I understand you closed them more, but they should be almost pinching the hairspring. Also, check the balance for timing washers. If there are pairs (opposite sides), try removing them. But also, check in 2 horizontal and 4 vertical positions, as the poise may be thrown out if they weren't matched pairs. You would want to check in 6 positions anyway on a watch of this grade, and it should keep very good time.

[jdrichard]

17 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Are the regulator pins gapped correctly? I understand you closed them more, but they should be almost pinching the hairspring. Also, check the balance for timing washers. If there are pairs (opposite sides), try removing them. But also, check in 2 horizontal and 4 vertical positions, as the poise may be thrown out if they weren't matched pairs. You would want to check in 6 positions anyway on a watch of this grade, and it should keep very good time.

Thanks, I’ll look for timing washers…

47 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Are the regulator pins gapped correctly? I understand you closed them more, but they should be almost pinching the hairspring. Also, check the balance for timing washers. If there are pairs (opposite sides), try removing them. But also, check in 2 horizontal and 4 vertical positions, as the poise may be thrown out if they weren't matched pairs. You would want to check in 6 positions anyway on a watch of this grade, and it should keep very good time.

Should I under cut balance screws. I’m now at -55 sec per day

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

Are the regulator pins gapped correctly? I understand you closed them more, but they should be almost pinching the hairspring. Also, check the balance for timing washers. If there are pairs (opposite sides), try removing them. But also, check in 2 horizontal and 4 vertical positions, as the poise may be thrown out if they weren't matched pairs. You would want to check in 6 positions anyway on a watch of this grade, and it should keep very good time.

Should I under cut balance screws. I’m now at -55 sec per day.  Here is my video on this watch problem

 

[nickelsilver]

1 hour ago, jdrichard said:

Thanks, I’ll look for timing washers…

Should I under cut balance screws. I’m now at -55 sec per day

 

Yes, but maybe you have a delta of 150s in the verticals. If you check 4 vertical positions, they should be within 10s of each other on this watch, eaaaaasy. But let's say you have +100 +10 -60 -120 in the verticals, which screw will you start modifying?

 

What are the 4 vertical rates (crown up, down, left, right) and does your rate and amplitude correspond in the two horizontal positions? This is a magnificent timepiece from the best U.S. maker, you must be methodical, do no harm. And if I understood, for a paying customer. It really needs to be done right, forget the customer, out of respect for Hamilton.

 

If you start cutting screws you need to cut the right one, haha.

Edited June 29, 2023 by nickelsilver

[jdrichard]

8 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Yes, but maybe you have a delta of 150s in the verticals. If you check 4 vertical positions, they should be within 10s of each other on this watch, eaaaaasy. But let's say you have +100 +10 -60 -120 in the verticals, which screw will you start modifying?

 

What are the 4 vertical rates (crown up, down, left, right) and does your rate and amplitude correspond in the two horizontal positions? This is a magnificent timepiece from the best U.S. maker, you must be methodical, do no harm. And if I understood, for a paying customer. It really needs to be done right, forget the customer, out of respect for Hamilton.

 

If you start cutting screws you need to cut the right one, haha.

You are absolutely correct.  I should also poise the balance when I am done. I still don’t know why it would have a good amplitude and be -500 sec slow.  That is way too much.

Another Update. On very close examination, the regulator pins seem to be swept backwards slightly. This may be the additional seconds I’ve been looking for. Need to disassemble the balance from the cock to repair this. WHAT MORE!

[oldhippy]

When you start playing around with the balance and the pallets which includes the impulse face which is governed by the banking pins you will find yourself in a mine field, which can and will be difficult to get out. I wish you luck.  

[nickelsilver]

Still curious to hear about the vertical rates. At least 30s runs in each position.

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, oldhippy said:

When you start playing around with the balance and the pallets which includes the impulse face which is governed by the banking pins you will find yourself in a mine field, which can and will be difficult to get out. I wish you luck.  

What about the initial horn and guard pin clearance checks , won't moving just one banking pin alter the total lock and banking run for the pallet on that side ? This is one reason i prefer books to youtube. 

[oldhippy]

All sorts of problems  occur, that's why I said a mine field. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

All sorts of problems  occur, that's why I said a mine field. 

This is why I think learning the escapement inside out is so important.  Instead of adjusting willy nilly hoping something corrects itself. John and Nicklesilver have posted some great information on setting up the escapement. Its a good idea to read it and practice  it over and over till it sinks in.

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This is why I think learning the escapement inside out is so important.  Instead of adjusting willy nilly hoping something corrects itself. John and Nicklesilver have posted some great information on setting up the escapement. Its a good idea to read it and practice  it over and over till it sinks in.

Just a random thought and maybe not completely related to this thread. We all know what the actual measurement of amplitude is but indirectly is it worth thinking of it as a measurement of friction as well. If it was possible to add up all the points of energy reducing friction in a watch from barrel to balance, i wonder if it would be in proportion with the swing of the balance taking into consideration the amount of stored energy.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[nickelsilver]

I tried to write up a concise method of checking the escapement here. Using that method, which is actually the "right" way (how good schools explain it), you could take the banking pins out completely and do 90% of the escapement checks. The banking pins are the last thing you need to look at- but the first thing most folks mess with, especially on American stuff with eccentric adjustable pins.

Edited June 30, 2023 by nickelsilver

[Neverenoughwatches]

32 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I tried to write up a concise method of checking the escapement here. Using that method, which is actually the "right" way (how good schools explain it), you could take the banking pins out completely and do 90% of the escapement checks. The banking pins are the last thing you need to look at- but the first thing most folks mess with, especially on American stuff with eccentric adjustable pins.

I have all that screen saved somewhere on my phone and dig it out when its practice time . In fact used it recently after replacing a balance staff, then my head started to panic when i realised the watch didnt have banking pins or anything at all to bank against. Like you say though it didnt affect any checking. Wierd though when adjusting the endshake on the lever without the escape wheel the impulse pin knocked the fork over and the hairspring less balance continued to spin, took a minute to figure out what was happening. Pin pallets

Edited June 30, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[praezis]

I really wonder why there is enough time for several posts but no time to perform the (more than once) requested vertical test?

Frank

[nickelsilver]

36 minutes ago, praezis said:

I really wonder why there is enough time for several posts but no time to perform the (more than once) requested vertical test?

Frank

Making the videos takes time too

[JohnR725]

On 6/29/2023 at 8:00 AM, oldhippy said:

Why did you adjust the banking pins, that is one thing that should be left alone. 

Have you ever noticed anything that can be moved should be moved in a watch movable banking pins of course they should be moved. It's an annoyance of mine every single watch I have to check the banking pins to see if somebody moved them because well they can and why did they move them no idea. Really quite annoying but their movable and I guess they have to be moved.

On 6/30/2023 at 7:16 AM, praezis said:

I really wonder why there is enough time for several posts but no time to perform the (more than once) requested vertical test?

Because there's a schedule there's a timeline is a demand and it looks like the videos done. In which case the problem is solved at least as far as the videos concerned. Time to move on to something new different and exciting.

Which unfortunately means were not going to get the answer to any of our questions. Plus I have questions like is the balance wheel round its amazing how much screwing up of timing can do if those arms are not where there supposed to be. It looks round can't tell and the spacing of the arms looks a little too great but they both look similar so maybe their right? Then the problem is the balance wheel keeps moving around too much it's really hard to get a good clear view of anything. But something else bothering me and I snipped out an image.

In this image there are one extremely disturbing thing and the other is not quite right disturbing. The mean time screws there all the way in they should never ever be there. This is a railroad grade watch capable phenomenal time and that's not where there supposed to be at all. Then there's the other peculiar thing which is why I went back to find this image notice they hairspring collet the gap looks too much to me. My guess is somebody had a bad hairspring day and this is a replacement hairspring.

Then I skipped add to the timing machine results kinda wish I hadn't. The oscilloscope doesn't look very nice at all way too much background noise which is interesting because I know the software has a gain control. Although he does keep talking and bumping into it and that's not good be good for the signal at all. He's very happy with what he sees he regulates it in one position of course is happy with everything else And the video comes to an end.

 

 

 

[oldhippy]

8 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Have you ever noticed anything that can be moved should be moved in a watch movable banking pins of course they should be moved. It's an annoyance of mine every single watch I have to check the banking pins to see if somebody moved them because well they can and why did they move them no idea. Really quite annoying but their movable and I guess they have to be moved.

Now you are paying the price and learning the hard way. Perhaps in future you will leave them alone unless you know what you are doing.  The person who taught me always said if you don't know what you are doing leave it alone and yes he was talking about watch banking pins. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Now you are paying the price and learning the hard way. Perhaps in future you will leave them alone unless you know what you are doing.  The person who taught me always said if you don't know what you are doing leave it alone and yes he was talking about watch banking pins. 

There you go wise words from someone that knows, applying the old adage # a lttle bit of knowledge can be dangerous #  I'm just pleased its not a nuclear reactor

42 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Have you ever noticed anything that can be moved should be moved

I might try saying that to my missus after shes rearranged the sofa or made the bed. on second thoughts maybe i dont want her to tear me a new one .

48 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Which unfortunately means were not going to get the answer to any of our questions.

That seems to happen more often than we would like John. Quite frustrating  when you spend time trying to help sort something out but then dont find out what the outcome is. But then who knows what goes on in peoples lives. But then come back with another question and we never discovered the full answer to the previous questions. This is a dont get me started subject.