Poor Amplitude

[mikepilk]

On 6/10/2023 at 12:56 AM, kd8tzc said:

 

I did nothing other than take the balance in and out.  With no power on the watch, if I manually rotate the balance like you say, it will rotate back and forth, the pallet fork is doing it's thing and the pallet wheel is turning... it does down in about 5 - 7 seconds I would say.

Have you tried blowing on the balance wheel with the puffer (pallet fork removed) to see how long the balance swings?

That will tell you if the problem is the balance

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Why waste the oil if I need to take the escapement out and adjust again?  The problem is I am getting NO amplitude meaning, it does not want to tick, so I have something wrong someplace.

The problem with watch repair is that in order for us to help you you are the eyes on the field you have to describe the situation if were going to troubleshoot the watch for you otherwise you need to learn how to troubleshoot the watch yourself were just here to supervise and give you pointers and tips. We can't see the watch to determine where the problem is.

So have you determined where your problem is yet?

 

[kd8tzc]

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

So have you determined where your problem is yet?

Not yet.

I do have a spare movement that has a good pallet fork and a good balance (I believe).  What I might try is replace one of those components in my movement that I have been working on and see what happens.  If no improvement, then I will replace the second component.  If still no improvement, well, we cross that bridge if I get to it.

The one thing I did see on the original balance, is the impulse jewel seems to be quite a bit out of alignment... I don't know if that would be causing all of this or not.  I would think it would get some amplitude though, but this should be a good learning experience.

[JohnR725]

51 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The 9415 was my preference because i thought initially it was a bit easier to place and the reason its stays put. But i have noticed on occasions the amplitude doesn't improve at all and sometimes drops probably with over lubrication. I think its just too thick, its much warmer here in the Uk, I'm wondering about rechecking tg readings to see if the problem watches have improved at all with thinning lubrication.

This is back to where experiments should be tried. So on the watch your concerned about too much lubrication remove the pallet fork rinse it off in your favorite rinsing solution. Now put your drive pallet fork back in the watch and the lubrication on the escape wheel should transferred to the pallet stones. In other words you now will have much less lubrication and see if that makes a difference at all.

Oh and thinking about amplitude specifications from the factory do we actually have to follow the specifications of what they do to get the amplitude or can we do whatever the heck we feel like? If you read carefully is another specification on lubrication of the escape wheel were typically they tell you if it's gone it can't be replaced and you should just replace the escape wheel. Yes there once was a kit to apply the lubrication but no no one ever knew the price could as you probably have a heart attack was complicated. So basically replace the escape wheel what am I talking about I've attached a PDF. Basically any time you can find technical specifications of the modern Swiss watch you will find epilam literally used everywhere including the balance staff and this is applied to the escape wheel. Although Omega on the lubrication guide does give specifications for lubrication of escape wheels with out this but it doesn't say how much decrease in amplitude you will have if you're missing this or whether it changes the specifications of things if it's missing. Oh and while you're looking at the spec sheet look at the second page towards the bottom basically example number two make sure you're sitting down it talks about cleaning things like rinsing the pallet fork in what exactly industrial was that word I see? I wonder what industrial alcohol is anyway?

 

46 minutes ago, Canadianwatchmaker said:

to try and understand what the issue is and maybe I can help. If I was handling this, I think someone mentioned early in thread, and I agree, try to isolate each component of the assembly first before installing something else. I can try and walk you threw some checks first. I would dissemble the watch and test and inspect each component first. The balance I would start with first, only the balance complete and bridge, next the pallet fork, also if you have worked with the shellac and adjusting the jewels, I would check to see if the shellac is rubbing against the mainplate, this is often over looked and too much shellac is in the wrong place. Next I would install everything except the pallet fork and balance to see if you get some back lash in the gear train showing that the friction and lubrication is good. Then install the pallet and check the motion and depthing for every tooth of the escapement wheel with only a little  power. Let me know how this goes. 

Yes you're describing basic troubleshooting.  Basic troubleshooting tends to often be lacking in that the assumption is cleaning will fix everything.  So basically what you describing should be done for every single watch making sure that you get power through the gear train making sure you get power to the escape wheel the pallet fork the balance wheel as opposed to I put it back together and it doesn't run at all I wonder why?

Oh and then adjusting the shellac and the pallet stones isn't part of the normal repair. Checking the escapement which is easy to do when your lubricating it to make sure that the escape wheel is supplying power to the fork that is something you do with every watch. ypically there is no need to play with the pallet stones unless there is some sort of problem. Then if you do play with the pallet stones you really do need to understand exactly where there supposed to be and that's not some arbitrary it looks right they have to be in the proper place for each watch. Otherwise you're going to have issues.

 

 

ETA No 29 Lubrifar 7.96.PDF

17 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

The one thing I did see on the original balance, is the impulse jewel seems to be quite a bit out of alignment... I don't know if that would be causing all of this or not.  I would think it would get some amplitude though, but this should be a good learning experience.

I don't suppose we can have a picture?

When you're looking at your roller jewel/impulse jewel yes the fun of watch repair different terminology. When you're looking at it out of alignment is it movable? Normally on anything vintage you always would check to make sure the roller jewel is still locked in place. Because the shellac with time for variety reasons no longer does its job and having a loose roller jewel is an issue. So you can just gently push on it you can grab it with your tweezers but you want to be careful not to break It and make sure it's still glued in place basically.

The problem with out of alignment is that the clearance of the jewel in the fork slot is extremely small. Side of alignment will mean that that clearance may drop to zero that would definitely be an issue.

 

[Canadianwatchmaker]

Early in the thread, there was a mention of adjusting the pallet stones, just wanted to get a double check that  you got it done correctly

[kd8tzc]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I don't suppose we can have a picture?

Sorry @JohnR725I have it out of the watch already.  The stone itself loose...  I possibly misstated this.  The stone was aiming in the wrong direction as I believe the slot of the collet on the balance staff was off causing it all to be out of sorts.  Remember the high beat error this had... I forget the number.

Anyhow, I replaced the balance cock assembly from the parts watch with the one that was giving me troubles, and now it is beating... not with ideal amplitude (193 currently) but the rate is sky high (+400 s/d) and a BE of 0.6. 

@JohnR725, I'm going to do your experiment and let it run for some time and take pictures of the timegrapher to see what this does over time.  I tried that with a different watch and it was quite interesting how things change as the watch unwinds.  I will post some pictures later when I have a series of them as I would like to see how to use these to troubleshoot what is going on.  Obviously, the rate needs to potentially be addressed... I hope it doesn't stay that high, but I'm sure some adjustment will need to take place with the escapement.

Edited June 15, 2023 by kd8tzc

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Canadianwatchmaker said:

Hello, I have tried to read as much of this thread as I can, to try and understand what the issue is and maybe I can help. If I was handling this, I think someone mentioned early in thread, and I agree, try to isolate each component of the assembly first before installing something else. I can try and walk you threw some checks first. I would dissemble the watch and test and inspect each component first. The balance I would start with first, only the balance complete and bridge, next the pallet fork, also if you have worked with the shellac and adjusting the jewels, I would check to see if the shellac is rubbing against the mainplate, this is often over looked and too much shellac is in the wrong place. Next I would install everything except the pallet fork and balance to see if you get some back lash in the gear train showing that the friction and lubrication is good. Then install the pallet and check the motion and depthing for every tooth of the escapement wheel with only a little  power. Let me know how this goes. 

 I concur with you, in that we can check each component and their engagement with adjacent ones , as we‌ disassemble and reassemble.  To add to your check list, we should check if fork horns don't rub on the roller table. Besides  good magnification,  if delta in DU & DD amplitudes or oscilating time  is excessive theres a fault to be spotted and fixed before re-assembly, theres also the guard pin to check/ adjust.

Making a habbit of this approach , saves us a lot of guessing time when the piece finally gets on timegrapher.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VWatchie]

On 6/10/2023 at 6:50 PM, mikepilk said:

When I clean a watch I put the balance on, without the pallet, to see how freely it swings. I give it a strong blast with a puffer, and I want to see the balance still swinging after 30s. How long does it swing ?

If not, you have a problem with the pivots/jewel or hairspring.

As your hairspring isn't flat, it could be catching on the balance arms, cock, or centre wheel.

This post made me recall some of the (IMO) most useful videos on the Chronoglide Watchmakers channel.