Poor Amplitude

[kd8tzc]

I had a previous discussion that seems to have jumped track somehow, so let me concentrate just on the amplitude for the time being.

Let me recap.... Caravelle 11DP 7 Jewel movement, I cleaned it and in the process the pallet jewels came loose.  I decided to remount them and where we last left it, it was suspected that the poor amplitude I was seeing was due to there being too much lock.  I have reduced the lock, now the issue I am having is the watch seems to have even lower amplitude (I can't even get it to run long enough to put on the timegrapher unless I put it on its side... but the timegrapher will not read it even though is does blink the light for the beat.... just too weak I guess).  When I look at the side of the balance, it almost looks like the hairspring is tilted slightly...  see image.  I took the balance off, and then placed it back on again just in case I did something weird when I installed it.  Same issue. 

The balance will do very small movements back and forth like it wants to keep going, but only when I stand the watch on end).  With dial up or dial down, nothing.

What should I be looking for as the culprit?  If the balance is on it's side, I'm thinking that one of the pivots?

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

I had a previous discussion that seems to have jumped track somehow, so let me concentrate just on the amplitude for the time being.

Let me recap.... Caravelle 11DP 7 Jewel movement, I cleaned it and in the process the pallet jewels came loose.  I decided to remount them and where we last left it, it was suspected that the poor amplitude I was seeing was due to there being too much lock.  I have reduced the lock, now the issue I am having is the watch seems to have even lower amplitude (I can't even get it to run long enough to put on the timegrapher unless I put it on its side... but the timegrapher will not read it even though is does blink the light for the beat.... just too weak I guess).  When I look at the side of the balance, it almost looks like the hairspring is tilted slightly...  see image.  I took the balance off, and then placed it back on again just in case I did something weird when I installed it.  Same issue. 

The balance will do very small movements back and forth like it wants to keep going, but only when I stand the watch on end).  With dial up or dial down, nothing.

What should I be looking for as the culprit?  If the balance is on it's side, I'm thinking that one of the pivots?

Eyup kd. Are you doing this with the balance disconnected from the escapement? 

[kd8tzc]

Sorry, I'm not understating what you asked.  What do you mean by disconnected?  Like the hairspring being disconnected?  I did not disconnect it from the stud and it does not appear to be.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, kd8tzc said:

Sorry, I'm not understating what you asked.  What do you mean by disconnected?  Like the hairspring being disconnected?  I did not disconnect it from the stud and it does not appear to be.

Ah sorry. No not disconnect the components of the balance assembly.  Disconnected from the escapement, so having no connection to the pallet fork and able to move freely on its own.

[kd8tzc]

When I blow air on the balance wheel, I see the fork move back and forth , so I'm sure they are engaging, if that is what you mean.

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

When I blow air on the balance wheel, I see the fork move back and forth , so I'm sure they are engaging, if that is what you mean.

By removing the pallet fork you will be disconnecting the balance from the rest of the escapement. That way you can pinpoint issues with the just the balance by itself as you have mentioned a fault with the hairspring  instead of it having interference from the escapement which may be adding additional issues.  Deal with function groups separately so you can eliminate other function groups from the cause of the problem. So to summarise,  remove the pallet fork and continue with your focus on the balance assembly .

[RichardHarris123]

Either the pallets are engaging but not in the correct position to take power from the escape wheel or there's not enough power to the escape wheel.  

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

unless I put it on its side

?

3 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

it almost looks like the hairspring is tilted slightly

As long as the slightly tilted hairspring isn't touching anything at least for running it's not an issue it's when they hairspring is touching the balance wheel a rubbing on the balance bridge Or bumping in anything it's not supposed to than that is definitely an issue

Okay let's narrow it down basic troubleshooting. So the previous problem was you relocated the pallet stones in incorrect location and the amplitude didn't run well so now you've moved the pallet stones and everything is total crap maybe we should get some pictures the pallet fork in the watch.

Then as far as taking the balance wheel in and out did you do anything other than that? Also with no power on the watch if you manually rotate the balance wheel about 300° and let go of it doesn't oscillate nicely back and forth or does it stop really really fast?

 

[kd8tzc]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

As long as the slightly tilted hairspring isn't touching anything at least for running it's not an issue it's when they hairspring is touching the balance wheel a rubbing on the balance bridge Or bumping in anything it's not supposed to than that is definitely an issue

Okay let's narrow it down basic troubleshooting. So the previous problem was you relocated the pallet stones in incorrect location and the amplitude didn't run well so now you've moved the pallet stones and everything is total crap maybe we should get some pictures the pallet fork in the watch.

Then as far as taking the balance wheel in and out did you do anything other than that? Also with no power on the watch if you manually rotate the balance wheel about 300° and let go of it doesn't oscillate nicely back and forth or does it stop really really fast?

I will try and get some pictures of the pallet fork in the watch.  I assume you want the balance removed though?  I also assume you want to see the lock on the stones?

I did nothing other than take the balance in and out.  With no power on the watch, if I manually rotate the balance like you say, it will rotate back and forth, the pallet fork is doing it's thing and the pallet wheel is turning... it does down in about 5 - 7 seconds I would say.

[mikepilk]

When I clean a watch I put the balance on, without the pallet, to see how freely it swings. I give it a strong blast with a puffer, and I want to see the balance still swinging after 30s. How long does it swing ?

If not, you have a problem with the pivots/jewel or hairspring.

As your hairspring isn't flat, it could be catching on the balance arms, cock, or centre wheel.

[JohnR725]

17 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

it does down in about 5 - 7 seconds I would say.

 

42 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

When I clean a watch I put the balance on, without the pallet, to see how freely it swings. I give it a strong blast with a puffer, and I want to see the balance still swinging after 30s. How long does it swing ?

Even with the escapement in  if you rotate the balance wheel manually 300° or you given a puff of air it should oscillate for more than  5 to 7 seconds..

43 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

problem with the pivots/jewel or hairspring.

As your hairspring isn't flat, it could be catching on the balance arms, cock, or centre wheel.

Yes it's amazing how much loss of amplitude  occurs with the hairspring not where it's supposed to be.  Then for the balance jewels  issues with those like the end stone's are they facing the right direction?  One of the ways to tell if you're having a balance jewel issue sometimes is the loosen the screw  the bridge a little bit and see if that helps..

17 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I also assume you want to see the lock on the stones?

I don't need to see the lock if you look at it and it looks fine In other words when you push on the fork with power does it snap from one side to the other?  If you look at the lock of both stones is it looked the same? Then did you remember to lubricate the escapement again?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

When I clean a watch I put the balance on, without the pallet, to see how freely it swings. I give it a strong blast with a puffer, and I want to see the balance still swinging after 30s. How long does it swing ?

If not, you have a problem with the pivots/jewel or hairspring.

As your hairspring isn't flat, it could be catching on the balance arms, cock, or centre wheel.

This is something i always check seperately before assembly, i also do the same with the lever. I Install the lever with nothing else, check the end and side shake and a final check to see if the lever will fall from side to side under gravity while tilting the movement. That feels like a good indication of free movement with no restriction and no interference from anything else. It is so much easier doing this first without the barrel and train installed, especially if a problem is found. The train restricts visibilty and you also have the ease of removing and installing the balance and pallet without working around the train.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[kd8tzc]

On 6/10/2023 at 1:36 PM, JohnR725 said:

Then for the balance jewels  issues with those like the end stone's are they facing the right direction?  One of the ways to tell if you're having a balance jewel issue sometimes is the loosen the screw  the bridge a little bit and see if that helps..

Okay, so this Caravel is a pain in the rear, especially with the jewels as they are different than what I am used to.  The inner jewel has this spring around it, and I struggle with figuring out which way is up on them.  Here are two of the pictures, and I apologize as I can see depth via my microscope, but the pictures don't show that well.  I believe the 2nd picture is the one that should be facing down (towards the balance) as it has that divot on that side, and I believe that is the side that normally goes towards the balance to accept the pivot.  Correct or am I mistaken?

[nickelsilver]

Concave side toward pivot, convex toward cap jewel.

[kd8tzc]

On 6/10/2023 at 1:36 PM, JohnR725 said:

Then did you remember to lubricate the escapement again?

Is this a trick question?  Do you mean lubricate the stones, the escapement wheel pivots or the escapement fork?  I never lubricate the escapement fork pivots.

Edited June 14, 2023 by kd8tzc

[VWatchie]

31 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Is this a trick question?  Do you mean lubricate the stones, the escapement wheel pivots or the escapement fork?  I never lubricate the escapement fork pivots.

Getting the right amount and type of lubrication between the surfaces of the escape wheel teeth and the pallet stones can have a pretty dramatic effect on the amplitude. And, treating these surfaces with Fixodrop (or some other brand of epilam), makes it so much easier to get it just right.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by VWatchie

[kd8tzc]

Yes, I get that @VWatchie, I guess I was asking if it was a trick question about lubricating the escapement fork pivots, as I was told you never do that.

I would think though, that if the escapement wheel and the pallet stones are not oiled (at least initially) I should get some amplitude.

[VWatchie]

1 minute ago, kd8tzc said:

would think though, that if the escapement wheel and the pallet stones are not oiled (at least initially) I should get some amplitude.

Sure, some amplitude, but noticeably hampered. The difference can be quite dramatic. You must lubricate to get a decent amplitude. Perhaps not true for all movements(?) but definitely my experience with cheap Raketa and Vostok movements which is what I'm working on most of the time.

6 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Yes, I get that @VWatchie, I guess I was asking if it was a trick question about lubricating the escapement fork pivots, as I was told you never do that.

Oops, I was confused by your terminology. I thought you were talking about the escape wheel pivots, when in fact you're talking about what I call the pallet fork (staff) pivots. That's right, we never lubricate the pallet fork pivots (unless we're reading the tech sheet for some common Seiko movements).

[mikepilk]

26 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Getting the right amount and type of lubrication between the surfaces of the escape wheel teeth and the pallet stones can have a pretty dramatic effect on the amplitude. And, treating these surfaces with Fixodrop (or some other brand of epilam), makes it so much easier to get it just right.

You really need a microscope to do this properly - I don't think you have enough magnification with a loupe. I need to take the 0.5X Barlow lens off to give me 45X mag to be able to see the oil under the teeth clearly. Too much oil can kill amplitude (as I recently found on a small ladies Omega).

[kd8tzc]

20 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

what I call the pallet fork (staff)

Sorry, you are correct... pallet fork... my mistake.

 

17 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

You really need a microscope to do this properly

Agree... I do have a microscope, but I have never taken the barlow off... I might try this.  I have been afraid I would not have enough working room.

[mikepilk]

1 minute ago, kd8tzc said:

Agree... I do have a microscope, but I have never taken the barlow off... I might try this.  I have been afraid I would not have enough working room.

This is about the only time I take the  0.5 X Barlow lens off. There is sufficient distance to work.  According to my Amscope manual (with 10X/20 eyepieces) the working distance drops from 165mm (with 0.5X Barlow) to 100mm without.  If you don't want to adjust the 'scope height, just work on top of a thick book - I use the box from from my jewelling set. 

I find that shining a torch under the movement holder illuminates the jewels from below and makes it much easier to see the oil. 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Getting the right amount and type of lubrication between the surfaces of the escape wheel teeth and the pallet stones can have a pretty dramatic effect on the amplitude. And, treating these surfaces with Fixodrop (or some other brand of epilam), makes it so much easier to get it just right.

Then like everything else in horology especially lubrication there are different thoughts on how things should be done different thoughts on the quantity of lubrication and even different thoughts on the types of lubrication. But do it wrong like decide not to lubricate your escapement that's found at the link below and then realize maybe you should notice the spectacular difference of no lubrication and now lubrication.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/26702-tissot-navigarot-automatic-44646-cal-2481/#comment-222225

5 hours ago, mikepilk said:

You really need a microscope to do this properly - I don't think you have enough magnification with a loupe. I need to take the 0.5X Barlow lens off to give me 45X mag to be able to see the oil under the teeth clearly. Too much oil can kill amplitude (as I recently found on a small ladies Omega).

Just think how much better you would be if you had an electron microscope? Then when discussing escapement lubrication you need to specify which lubricate you using because that will have a dramatic effect. Specifically when you're using 9415 this is where the problems will occur. 9415 is liked for a lubrication because it stays in place it's a grease with thixotropic properties I have a Wikipedia below.

Now the problem with what I quoted up above is too much oil does not kill amplitude. Too much grease like specifically 9415 does kill amplitude. In the evolution of the escapement lubrication at one time 9010 was acceptable then a special lubrication just for escapement 941 which is an oil. Then in the evolution of escapement lubrication we also have the evolution of faster rate watches which add complications for keeping the oil where it's supposed to be.

Then it depends upon when your technical sheet was printed early enough it might be 9010 later on it be 941. Then the nifty 9415 was invented but it would only find that specified for higher frequency watches. But then watchmakers aren't the only ones that are cheap for lubrication we start to see either or for a lot of watches either 941 or 9415. With finally 9415 beating out as the preferred lubrication in this universe.

But then an interesting discovery was made of loss of amplitude but only with 9415 because of its interesting properties. On impact it's basically a very slippery oil probably equivalent of 941. But what if you have too much grease and the layer is to thick? You'll still have the impact that will be extremely slippery but what about the sides escape wheel is now going through a very thick layer of  grease  with only the impact area being really slippery and everything else sticky. So the edges of the escape wheel are going to be stuck in place with sticky grease. The basically it's a very interesting substance that the layer has to be the right thickness and as usual everyone has a different view of what that should be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy

 

 

[kd8tzc]

@JohnR725I have been using the 9010 on the stones.

Also, regarding my not oiling comment above... I will oil the stones, but after everything is working.  Why waste the oil if I need to take the escapement out and adjust again?  The problem is I am getting NO amplitude meaning, it does not want to tick, so I have something wrong someplace.

[Neverenoughwatches]

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

But then an interesting discovery was made of loss of amplitude but only with 9415 because of its interesting properties

The 9415 was my preference because i thought initially it was a bit easier to place and the reason its stays put. But i have noticed on occasions the amplitude doesn't improve at all and sometimes drops probably with over lubrication. I think its just too thick, its much warmer here in the Uk, I'm wondering about rechecking tg readings to see if the problem watches have improved at all with thinning lubrication.

[Canadianwatchmaker]

Hello, I have tried to read as much of this thread as I can, to try and understand what the issue is and maybe I can help. If I was handling this, I think someone mentioned early in thread, and I agree, try to isolate each component of the assembly first before installing something else. I can try and walk you threw some checks first. I would dissemble the watch and test and inspect each component first. The balance I would start with first, only the balance complete and bridge, next the pallet fork, also if you have worked with the shellac and adjusting the jewels, I would check to see if the shellac is rubbing against the mainplate, this is often over looked and too much shellac is in the wrong place. Next I would install everything except the pallet fork and balance to see if you get some back lash in the gear train showing that the friction and lubrication is good. Then install the pallet and check the motion and depthing for every tooth of the escapement wheel with only a little  power. Let me know how this goes.