Tissot Navigarot Automatic (44646) cal. 2481

[swiss2k]

Hello everyone, 

 

Recently acquired this nice looking divers watch which had water damage. Movement was fully serviced, cleaned, oiled and so on.

Now the issue is that it runs fast, +35-50s/d. Amplitude is, I think, OK ~230 , beat error is around 0.4 ...

So the lower the beat error the faster it runs. Turned the regulator to full "-" position, but that does not help much.

 

Please advise, what might be the issue here.

 

Thank you!

[watchweasol]

Hi check that the balance spring is not bound on the regulator and beating between the pins freely.  I take it you received it “ serviced” which is not always the case. Pictures on the movement will help members in their diagnosis

If you serviced it you self look for balance spring issues like not flat catching the cock. Was the mainspring changed,if so was it the correct one, as you can see there can be many causes to the problem

Oh don’t forget to demagnetise the watch as dirt and magnetism both cause sticking coils speeding up the watch

[mikepilk]

Don't worry about the beat error, 0.4ms is fine. The amplitude isn't great for a newly serviced watch.

Can you provide a close up pic of the hairspring ?

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, swiss2k said:

So the lower the beat error the faster it runs.

This is where it's always nice to give pictures of the watch so I have a link. One of the problems are having is the beat is adjustable separate from the rate but they're stacked on top of each other which means when you move one you can move both of them. So this is why when you're moving to beat your also moving the regulator when she get the beat adjusted you have to move the regulator..

13 hours ago, swiss2k said:

water damage

Water damage you will elaborate as to what damage and where and how did you fix the problem?

Then when you have your watch and a timing machine turn it hundred and 80° so the crown is out it often helps give better timing results. Also since watch is having issues should be best of it wasn't in the case altogether..  Then  in addition to the requested hairspring picture basically a picture looking straight down at the balance wheel assembly where the regulating arms etc. are..

Also where timing the watch  it be nice if we could see a picture of the results of dial-up, dial down  and  one crown position minimum of which would be crown down all three would be nice and I would be curious 24 hours later how is the watch running?

21 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Don't worry about the beat error, 0.4ms is fine. The amplitude isn't great for a newly serviced watch.

Then yes that beat is so close you don't need to worry about that but the amplitude does look a little low which is why I'm curious as to how it's running 24 hours from now.

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Tissot_2481

 

[Nucejoe]

I suspect  intermittent sticking of hairspring.

Can you show few minutes vid of hairpsring coil when the watch is running? 

 The vid can be posted on you tube and give us the link to it. 

[swiss2k]

Sorry everyone, I should have initially put in more effort in the description of the problem etc. \

 

So,

Water damage. I could only assume that there was water inside the watch. Looks like the crown seal was the cause. Keyless works took the biggest hit (stem, winding pinion and so on). Lume on the dial, has suffered a bit also, but that cleaned-up nicely. And overall the movement was in need of servicing. 

 

Measurement. Was done outside the case, just the bear movement.

 

Video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/512weuo7xgs7fgb/IMG_3551.MOV?dl=0 

Picture: 

 

 

Update: I tried playing a bit more with the adjustments. Rate: +3s/d, Amp: 180, BE: 0.3 ... Honestly at this point I'm a bit lost. The watch runs fine bit the beat is supper low.... 

Edited June 9, 2023 by swiss2k

[JohnR725]

On 6/8/2023 at 11:37 AM, swiss2k said:

Turned the regulator to full "-" position, but that does not help much.

Just so were all on the same page here are watch really has two ways a regulating sort of. There is the micro adjustment with the screw. You put that in the center position then the arm that actually does the regulating can be manually moved. Then when you really close at then you can play with the micro adjustment otherwise as you found it has very limited range if the other arm is not where it's supposed to be. Then which I believe I set up above floating stud can be moved independent in all three are layered together so to a certain degree all three will move each other.

 

[swiss2k]

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Just so were all on the same page here are watch really has two ways a regulating sort of. There is the micro adjustment with the screw. You put that in the center position then the arm that actually does the regulating can be manually moved. Then when you really close at then you can play with the micro adjustment otherwise as you found it has very limited range if the other arm is not where it's supposed to be. Then which I believe I set up above floating stud can be moved independent in all three are layered together so to a certain degree all three will move each other.

 

I believe we are. I used the adjuster with the hairspring stud to make the beat error as low as possible. The major gain or loss in s/d I adjusted with the adjuster with the curb pin. And in the very end the micro adjustments with the screw. Sorry, I did a bad job with the initial description. 

[JohnR725]

On 6/8/2023 at 11:37 AM, swiss2k said:

Now the issue is that it runs fast, +35-50s/d.

As nice as your picture isn't it does show something that's a problem it would be nice to have a picture of the balance wheel in the watch looking straight down so we can see if they hairspring looks like it's centered. Because right now it does not look like it's centered but that could be because the balance wheel is leaning as it's out of the watch.

In a case here is an image from your image and notice a problem it looks like they hairspring is touching the stud?

 

 

So when you put it back in the watch look carefully is the hairspring actually touching or not and when the watches running even if it's not touching when it stopped it may be close enough that when the hairspring opens up it will touch the stud.

Then this is where it's nice to have pictures of your watch so we can give you helpful suggestions fortunately I found another picture online. I notice your stud has a screw on top I assume when you loosen the screw the stud will rotate? With no power on the watch providing they hairspring actually is touching the backside of the stud you can loosen the stud and see if you bump they hairspring back into being centered in other words you have to move the hairspring away from the backside of the stud like in the picture where you notice the outer terminal curve is much greater than what you have as a guess caused by your stud not being quite in the right place I suspect when you loosen the screw up with no power of probably just align itself where it's supposed to be. Then yes the words to describe this totally sucks versus if you could just see somebody do it. That's why I'm giving an image that's more of what you should see versus what we see with yours as soon as you get us a picture in the watch of the balance wheel

then the definition a centered is if you look at your image you look at the coil spacing near the stud and look at the coil spacing on the other side of notice on the other side they are much closer together. I think once all the spacing is even you should be away from the stud the watch should be fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Hairspring coil is not concentric " pushed to side" ,    hairspring needs a bit of manipulation  near the stud to center the coil. 

 

 

 

 

Turn the stud with a reglare screw driver to center the coil, thats all it needs.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Nucejoe

[swiss2k]

Here are a couple more pictures. And looks to me you guys were right about the hairspring. 
 

[JohnR725]

Seeing how the stud is mounted which I couldn't really see before it's kinda like the etachron system in that you can rotate the stud in its clip. In other words when you look at it he just gently rotated and see if that solves your problem you shouldn't have to be bending the hairspring at all. Also look to make sure that they hairspring is centered between the regulator pins as it probably currently is not. Then as I have 50% chance of getting it right I think you rotate the studs group counterclockwise just a hair see what happens but that's a 50% chance and write it has to do with the way the terminal curve looks.

 

[swiss2k]

Update on the results.

So, the hairspring was really touching the stud. I moved it a bit away from the stud with the mentioned screw. The centricity now looks much better. Amplitude is looking a bit better now (imho). Left it running after the adjustments for a bit. Picture attached. 
 

 

 

 

Also turning the watch 180deg, does not make much of a difference comparing to how it was before. Amplitude gets even better on the other side, around 254.

 

Should I leave it like this? 

Edited June 10, 2023 by swiss2k

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, swiss2k said:

Also turning the watch 180deg, does not make much of a difference comparing to how it was before. Amplitude gets even better on the other side, around 254.

That looks a lot better. With the difference in amplitudes, it might be worth recleaning and oiling the cap jewel which is on the bottom when the amplitude is lowest. 

1 hour ago, swiss2k said:

Should I leave it like this? 

Depends on what you want out of the watch. It looks like it will keep good time. See what the amplitude is after 24h (if it's above, say 180°, it should be OK). Wear it for a few days and see how accurate it is.

You may not have the hairspring exactly centred, which could be losing you some amplitude. 

[Nucejoe]

So  hairspring no longer hits the stud,  it also( the hairspring)  should pass through the regulator slot ( boot-pin) mid point.  Looks to me a micro, mini, little bitty adjustment can be made the same way you centered the spring. 

 

[JohnR725]

Have you demagnetized The watch?

Then how do you lubricate the escapement..

Then isn't it amazing what happens if the hairspring isn't touching what it's not supposed to be touching.

 

 

 

[swiss2k]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

That looks a lot better. With the difference in amplitudes, it might be worth recleaning and oiling the cap jewel which is on the bottom when the amplitude is lowest. 

Depends on what you want out of the watch. It looks like it will keep good time. See what the amplitude is after 24h (if it's above, say 180°, it should be OK). Wear it for a few days and see how accurate it is.

You may not have the hairspring exactly centred, which could be losing you some amplitude. 

Oil changed. "hairspring exactly centred" - probably, bot honestly do not want to touch it anymore =). other then that will wear it and see, bout honestly even before the fix, I was wearing it and all seemed fine =))

 

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

So  hairspring no longer hits the stud,  it also( the hairspring)  should pass through the regulator slot ( boot-pin) mid point.  Looks to me a micro, mini, little bitty adjustment can be made the same way you centered the spring. 

 

 

Thnx for the advices. Please check the picture, looks to me that its in the right place. 

 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Have you demagnetized The watch?

Then how do you lubricate the escapement..

Then isn't it amazing what happens if the hairspring isn't touching what it's not supposed to be touching.

 

 

 

"Demagnetized" - not yet, waiting for the device to come. 

"how do you lubricate" - I don't. Neither the pellets not the fork. Read somewhere that people do that, but correct me if I'm wrong. 

"isn't touching what it's not supposed to be touching" -  ha

 

Update 20min later after saying I would not touch the spring:

OK, OK ... I turned a bit more the stud screw, now the Amp is 260... Guys this is it, I will not touch it anymore, don't even ask! 

But jokes aside, I guess I would live it like this and see after a while? 

Edited June 10, 2023 by swiss2k

[JohnR725]

15 minutes ago, swiss2k said:

"how do you lubricate" - I don't. Neither the pellets not the fork. Read somewhere that people do that, but correct me if I'm wrong.

The pallet fork pivots are never lubricated. But the pallet stones are definitely lubricated.  One of the clues I have of lack of lubrication is  look at your timing machine line notice how it's not smooth. Then lubricating the escapement  usually bumps up the amplitude by quite a bit..

 

 

[swiss2k]

@JohnR725 this would be a kinda "next level" for me. Need to order the oil and stuff and then will try. Would be interesting to see if there would be any difference. 

[Nucejoe]

Yes hairspeing almost in mid point in the regulator slot, good enough I wouldn't touch it.

Am I understanding right, you have not lubricated the pallets yet, or you might lube the escape teeth instead, in case you haven't you will see considerable amplitude gain when you do.

Swiss lever escapement lives on oil. 

Rgds

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, swiss2k said:

this would be a kinda "next level" for me. Need to order the oil and stuff and then will try. Would be interesting to see if there would be any difference. 

 

18 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Swiss lever escapement lives on oil. 

Yes oil it's needed on the lever escapement otherwise amplitude sufferers timing machine results suffer and  yes you really need some oil there..  Whatever oil use on the balance pivots  put some on the fork or the escape wheel teeth  I prefer to put it on the fork. In other words the oil the impulse plane the pool drop in the move the fork back and forth until one third of the teeth go by the you put another drop another third and another third and then you let it run a little bit and put it back on the timing machine sometimes it didn't transfer all the way around you might have to just touch of the loyal on the other side of the fork. But for right now in your learning it's not critical you don't have to order anything special  but you do have to oil it..

[swiss2k]

10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 

Yes oil it's needed on the lever escapement otherwise amplitude sufferers timing machine results suffer and  yes you really need some oil there..  Whatever oil use on the balance pivots  put some on the fork or the escape wheel teeth  I prefer to put it on the fork. In other words the oil the impulse plane the pool drop in the move the fork back and forth until one third of the teeth go by the you put another drop another third and another third and then you let it run a little bit and put it back on the timing machine sometimes it didn't transfer all the way around you might have to just touch of the loyal on the other side of the fork. But for right now in your learning it's not critical you don't have to order anything special  but you do have to oil it..

Well my understanding was that I would need epilame and a special kind of oil. I was kinda thinking I should get at least epilame, because that makes life easier when oiling balance wheels jewels. 

[JohnR725]

20 minutes ago, swiss2k said:

that makes life easier when oiling balance wheels jewels

I think we need to go over what you do oil and what you're not Oil in your watch..

Then  I consider this a discussion group of people learning  which means I authorize you  by the way I have no power to authorize anybody but I now authorize you to Oil your escapement with any lubrication that you have for horology  without the epilam. After all in the old days used to oil it without epilam and I don't even use epilam at work  and yes epilam opens up another can of worms  I really curious about how you lubricate your balance pivots and which you use on them..

 

[Nucejoe]

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 Oil your escapement with any lubrication that you have for horology 

[swiss2k]

Update:

    The oiling and the amplitude:

I oiled the exit pallet only, on the pallet fork. Added a drop then 4-5 clicks and added some more .. around 3 times I repeated the procedure. After that I checked that all the tooth's of the escapement wheel are evenly oiled. And left it too run... 

Well I was expecting that the amplitude would rise, a bit, say 10-20deg... but from 220 to 290-295 (what??!!!) ... I guess you guys know a thing or two.  

 

    Regarding oils that I use:

Mobius 8000 "light viscosity" - train wheels

Microgliss D-5 "med viscosity" - main spring barrel, the date and wheels, or where there is "as I imagine" more friction

Molykote DX Paste (DX30) "heavy viscosity" - keyless works, basically metal on metal (steel)

Moebius Natural Grease 8217 - mainspring barrel walls

 

    Epilame: 

After listening to you guys and watching this dude in the video. (also after seeing the latest results I got), Epilame was removed from my wish list in the Bergoen's website  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHk-qRWiOJ8&ab_channel=WatchRepairTutorials 

 

So, what I see not on the machine is -10s/d, Amp 280-295, error 0.1ms ... will adjust the rate a bit later, will let it run for a day or two.