What stops less then 24 hours in

[kd8tzc]

@JohnR725, you had an interesting post in this discussion but I didn't want to hijack that post. in it you said...

Quote

A lot of times when the watches wound up tight everything looks really nice but 24 hours later it might not even be running at all

So what can cause the watch to stop before 24 hours even when it is running nicely for a few hours?  I know the list is most likely endless, but what are some of the things to check that might have caused this? 

My first thought is something is wonky with the mainspring, but what if that is a brand new mainspring?  What else could cause power loss in the train of wheels?

[JohnR725]

32 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

My first thought is something is wonky with the mainspring, but what if that is a brand new mainspring?  What else could cause power loss in the train of wheels?

Do you have a timing machine? I kinda hate trouble shooting in the dark a timing machine will reveal a lot of things.

Without a timing machine we have to guess. For instance when the watch stops does it come to a slow stop or does it suddenly stop?. Like of the hands touching If the hands are on. Then is it the correct mainspring or was there a substitution made.

Then each watch discussion is unique which watch you were talking about and anything about the background history we should know? In other words was running when you got it it's not running now can a helps to figure out where the problem is whether it came from before and after it worked on

So back to guessing image attached below. Gear train ratios they'll vary a little bit obviously the center wheel will always go around once per hour. If the hands are hitting stuff on the dial side. This is where if you're having a problem we remove the hands and move the stuff of the dial side to narrow the problem down. Then runs more than an hour and you did change the mainspring in see that the revolution of the mainspring barrel is around eight hours if there's a problem with one of the teeth on the mainspring barrel or the lids not down tight. I've had that happen with pocket watches occasionally. Or some mainsprings have T ends and that sticks up and that Can catch on something. If the barrel arbor is extremely warns the barrel doesn't sit flat another issue. But usually we have to rule out the simple things first a lot of times people start looking for the really obscure things that it's usually something pretty simple just not entirely visible if you're not sure what you're looking for. Or as I like the comment it's the elephants in the room which is too big to be noticed and then you start looking for the dust in the corner of the room's.

But timing machine is really a interesting device for troubleshooting either the Chinese 1000's of the 1900 preferred still nice for troubleshooting and relatively inexpensive.

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by JohnR725

[kd8tzc]

Yes, I have a timing machine.

All of these are for dial down

Rate: -7; Amp: 171; BE: 7.2

This is for the Caravelle 11DP that I have been working on, so I know the watch has problems, but it never stopped before.  I have the watch fully wound, and it will stop a number of hours in.  One thing I have not checked is if the barrel lid on the mainspring is flat.  I need to take it apart to do that and will do so.  I thought I read that a warped on uneven lid can cause problems a number of hours in.

The hands are not on the watch, so that should not be an issue.

 

[JohnR725]

42 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Yes, I have a timing machine.

All of these are for dial down

Rate: -7; Amp: 171; BE: 7.2

We need to work on your Timing machine diagnostic skills. The beat error is unacceptable  then the amplitude is extremely unacceptable. In other words this watch has a serious problem beyond stopping. Then ideally you should do at least two positions dial down and maybe crown down for wristwatch so we can see the difference.

You want to try an experiment? Wind the watch up put it on the timing machine change to crown down position take a picture forest as I really do like to see the picture. Wait give it some time look at it every half hour so until it comes to a stop.

This group has a amplitude obsession. Somebody is probably having a heart attack right now over that amplitude you have. Usually for this group to minimum acceptable at the end of 24 hours would be 200° it will vary for the watches though some Omega's Can go down to 160° but that's a really nice watch. Then on this group the obsession is aiming for 300 which is silly but 170 for a fully wound up watch you have a serious problem. If you were to allow the watch to run in its current condition you'll notice the amplitude should be dropping off really really fast and the reason your stopping is you're running out of power so there is some serious problems here. In other words it's probably not the mainspring barrel that there's something else going on.

 

[mikepilk]

Just now, kd8tzc said:

I agree, that the amplitude is bad, I just don't know why if I have a new mainspring though... so something must be goofy that I did.

It's rarely the mainspring. As a beginner I too was always over-concerned about the mainspring. It's more likely a problem with the barrel arbor, gear train, balance etc etc.

[JohnR725]

Safe zone? If you don't understand something I say just say I didn't understand without spelling out the problem then we end up with me now having to figure out where the problem occurred and how to answer the question. Plus trying really really really hard to make sure the stupid dictation software does what it's supposed to do as opposed to what it likes to do which is sometimes random words that I don't always Have any real meaning at all. In other words the word forest means nothing in this conversation it wasn't some live troll of its just whatever the heck the stupid dictation software stuck there. I've been told by people if you read it out loud it's usually better and if I can't read it out loud well it's an issue. Then we all get frustrated.

29 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

It's rarely the mainspring. As a beginner I too was always over-concerned about the mainspring. It's more likely a problem with the barrel arbor, gear train, balance etc etc.

This goes back to my running joke of it's the elephant in the room. Not always it could be obscured dust in the corner someplace but usually it's an elephant. Unfortunately for newbies and even some of us that aren't newbies sometimes the elephant is invisible. If you don't know what you're looking for you're never going to see it. Then you can get obsessed with things that may or may not be the problem.

1 hour ago, kd8tzc said:

Caravelle 11DP

 

Then when referencing a prior discussion may be you could give a link so I don't have to go searching for it. Because I like to see a picture of the movement. On the other hand the benefit the search is oh that watch. Unfortunately I remember that discussion. Safe zone I'm supposed to have happy thoughts and be happy and say happy things here. Basically not happy to read the discussion below. Somewhere in there is a reference to the escape wheel and donor movement did you fix that? Then the ending part the pallet fork that is definitely an issue.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/26364-changes-on-timegrapher/#comment-218670

Yes I sometimes like to repeat things like watch repair is like learning to be a doctor. Studies required reading watching YouTube videos seems a common way. Mark has a lot of nice videos to watch for instance. But heck of a lot of practicing and time. Everybody in the group is still learning watch repair and initially there's a heck of a lot of knowledge you need that you don't have. Like the placement of the jewels in the discussion above was not done correctly for reasons that I'm going to skip over right now. They don't just go and some arbitrary position that looks right they have to actually be in the right position. And it's based on doing very exacting escapement checks and then placement of the jewels and checking that they're in the right place. Because otherwise you will end up with issues like amplitude issues could definitely be one of them.

Where to start? This is me thinking out loud

Unfortunately it appears to be we now have several elephants in the room which is presenting problems until your amplitude can go above well at like to see it much closer to 200° we can't worry about the beat error because as amplitude drops everything gets magnified.

Then we still have a lot of troubleshooting to do but I'm just going to post a message for now while I think about things. The prior discussion brings up complications way beyond the mainspring plus you had issues before that are now Worse.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

31 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

This goes back to my running joke of it's the elephant in the room. Not always it could be obscured dust in the corner someplace but usually it's an elephant. Unfortunately for newbies and even some of us that aren't newbies sometimes the elephant is invisible. If you don't know what you're looking for you're never going to see it. Then you can get obsessed with things that may or may not be the problem.

Without professional knowledge we can over complicate something that is in fact quite simple. Its a watch, a micro mechanical machine with many moving parts so everything about it must be complicated, so i will look for a complicated answer to the problem . I always start with the basics and try to use logic working from part to part to part as no moving part works alone. All connections are important and a lot of issues are found within connections.  A step back and a break can help disengage confusion and complication. Just how i think and might make no sense whatsoever to anyone else

[kd8tzc]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Like the placement of the jewels in the discussion above was not done correctly for reasons that I'm going to skip over right now. They don't just go and some arbitrary position that looks right they have to actually be in the right position. And it's based on doing very exacting escapement checks and then placement of the jewels and checking that they're in the right place. Because otherwise you will end up with issues like amplitude issues could definitely be one of them.

Yes, I understand.  I didn't just stick them in an arbitrary position though and leave them that way.  I had to readjust a number of times until it was about 1/3 of the thickness of the impulse jewel (what Mr H Fried explains in The Watch Repairer's Manual on pp 208 - 210).  Possibly I didn't get it right, but it was not just an arbitrary setting that I just selected.  I don't have a very accurate way to measure it other than with just my eyes via the microscope though.  If there is a better way to ensure it is only 1/3, then please let me know.

That being said... should I post some pictures of the exit and entry stones when the escape tooth locks on them?

Edited June 6, 2023 by kd8tzc
correction

[mikepilk]

1 minute ago, kd8tzc said:

That being said... should I post some pictures of the exit and entry stones when the escape tooth locks on them?

Yes please 

[kd8tzc]

I had a feeling you all were going to want pictures.  I had to stop John's timegrapher test, but we can always resume again.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

I had a feeling you all were going to want pictures.  I had to stop John's timegrapher test, but we can always resume again.

 

Hard to tell but the exit stone looks like the lock is a bit deep .

[kd8tzc]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hard to tell but the exit stone looks like the lock is a bit deep .

Okay... it's really hard to measure this stuff.  I wish there was a good way to do it.  It should be 1/3 of the thickness of the impulse jewel face, correct (that's what Mr Fried stated and the impulse face, from what I understand is the slanted part in the picture of the stone).  I wish the microscope had a way to do measurements.  This is one of those moments that just amaze me by the old timers and those who just use a loupe. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Okay... it's really hard to measure this stuff.  I wish there was a good way to do it.  It should be 1/3 of the thickness of the impulse jewel face, correct (that's what Mr Fried stated and the impulse face, from what I understand is the slanted part in the picture of the stone).  I wish the microscope had a way to do measurements.  This is one of those moments that just amaze me by the old timers and those who just use a loupe. 

For us unless we have finances for scale measuring with a scope then just training the eye . High beat movements require less lock , i seem to remember reading 1/6 of the impulse face. There are other escapement checks besides the depth of lock. I dont have enough experience here to fully explain it but i think it begins with pallet lever horn clearance. There is a good explanation by Nicklesilver buried somewhere in the forum threads, try a search for it. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, kd8tzc said:

until it was about 1/3 of the thickness of the impulse jewel (what Mr H Fried explains in The Watch Repairer's Manual on pp 208 - 210).

Every time I see the name it has a instantaneous visual effect of me remembering. I was giving a talk at a nawcc national meeting so every time Henry Walked past me he stopped and we talked and he told me to get the book his book because it have all the answers. Unfortunately the book does not have all the answers. But still a very interesting person kinda regarded as the father of American watchmaker in a way

but arbitrary rules like this are incorrect there is a procedure that's more or less a starting point and I'm pretty sure the depth is too great. What you normally want to do is you check your worn and guard pin clearance to make sure their right. Fortunately on a watch like this unless you change the pallet fork we can assume even though I hate assuming they're probably right. Not like an American pocket watch with movable banking pins that mysteriously move under their own force overtime. So once you verify your clearances are cracked and then you can worry about the pallet stones

then it also depends upon who is hand out and/or book you look at. Every single one of my have slightly different terminology and as somebody pointed  out up above the clearances are different depending upon whose literature you're looking at.

So the first thing you a check which is not a problem here you would check by moving the pallet fork to make sure that the escapement does actually function and that the escape wheel can clear the stones. If they get out too far then the you Stop the escape wheel permanently.

So overly simplistic where should the pallet stones be? Rotate the balance wheel hold it in place pretend you're checking the guard pin clearance. Wiggle the fork but this time look at your pallet stone how close are you to the impulse plane? There has to be a little bit of safety here you can't fall off and hit the impulse plane so basically as close as you can to the impulse play is the absolute minimum you can have. The maximum of course is a Be out so far that you stopped escape wheel from rotating.

Then the farther out they are the worst  the amplitude will be. This is because when the roller jewel hits the fork and it's pushing on the fork it's unlocking the problem is your unlocking for a wall on the time so by the time it unlocks your only go to get a tiny bit of push and your amplitude is going to crash and burn like we have now.

So whatever I'm looking at now says 1/5. I see up above 1/6 But I'm looking at a handout that I think I'll attach I found it online somewhere once. Some of it came from a lecture anyway there are the handouts lectures somebody's added to it they have  slightly different. So rather than an arbitrary number I would reduce it as much as you can and yet still have safeties so it doesn't land on the impulse plane rather than a arbitrary one third which is way greater than anything else I'm looking. So handouts attached the light reading move the stones in a little bit and things will look better. Make sure you put some lubrication on the stones it's an amazing what lubrication of the escapement will do it's more important than anything else in the watch.

 

 

 

Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf

[kd8tzc]

Okay, I will review the handout.  I was in the process of adjusting the stone on the exit side.  I noticed something.  I had been noticing that my shellac was acting funny a while back and I think I found what may be causing that.  I thought "One Dip" by Troop-Balas labs was safe for jewels, stones and shellac, but I just quickly dipped the pallet fork in there, and it caused the shellac to get all soft on both stones.  Letting it sit didn't seem to help, and adding a little heat didn't either... so it looks like I have to redo both stones now.

I just dipped it in the One Dip as I saw a little too much oil on the one stone and wanted to clear it off.  So what can you use to clean oil off without destroying the shellac?

@JohnR725I will try your method of getting the lock as minimal as I can.  That seems to make sense as the amplitude was bad and if I recall correctly less lock means greater amplitude; and too high of lock can reduce amplitude.  Please correct me if that is not correct.