Jumping in with both feet

[TLGriff]

I'm a life-long machinist who has always had an interest in watch repair, but never had the time to try it. Now that I'm retired, there's still no time, but I've decided to use Grandpa's Elgin pocket watch as my first victim. It hasn't run since I acquired it in 1966, so it'll be no great loss if I'm not succesful. I did manage to find a movement that has a lot of the same parts as mine and have been accumulating the necessary tools and lubricants to get started. The most painful was a set of Bergeron screwdrivers after figuring out that my set of Starrett jewlers screwdrivers were totally inadequate. It looks like I'll need a staking tool as well, because the balance staff only has one pivot.

I'm looking forward to the challenge, and hopefully you guys can help bail me out if I get in too deep.

 

Tom

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, TLGriff said:

Grandpa's Elgin pocket watch as my first victim.

I like the phrase of victim because the first time repairs well hopefully the victim doesn't end up in the morgue which is typically what happens with first-time repairs. Which is why we usually recommend something different to start with.

It be nice to have a picture of the watch because we like pictures on this group.

 

[RichardHarris123]

Welcome, we do indeed like photos. 

[watchweasol]

Hello and welcome to the forum.    Enjoy.

[Nucejoe]

Hi and welcome Tom.

 

[oldhippy]

Thank you for your introduction and welcome to this friendly forum.

We all look forward to your contributions and continued involvement. 

[TLGriff]

Thank you all for the warm welcome. I received my set of Bergeron screwdrivers today, so I was able to finish disassembling the movement. There was one large screw that wouldn't budge, so I had to make a screwdriver to fit. It was also a left hand thread, but I managed to get it out without issue. Here is a photo of the progress. It's very dirty, and also seems to be quite magnetic.

[RichardHarris123]

Where's the balance?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Where's the balance?

yes that is a very good question? 

then I would be curious to know what the serial number of this watch is?

 

[TLGriff]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

yes that is a very good question? 

then I would be curious to know what the serial number of this watch is?

 

The balance was awol. I have a parts movement with the same balance that I plan on using. The serial number of the watch is 7456893.

[Watchoutnow]

If this your first time at watch repair you may have a struggle getting this back together. You should read my comments about full plate reassembly. However, vintage American PW's are not a good place to start. If you want to practice watch repair, the Swiss Unitas movements like UT 6497 or 6498 (the newer ones are made by ETA who bought Unitas) or vintage UT 6325 are the place to start. Most watch courses recommend the Chinese clones of the 6497/6498 but I dislike the cheap way the balance shock clips are made and mine has a faulty swan neck regulator. 

Also, on the watch you disassembled, you might not be able to get the mainspring back in the barrel without a proper and expensive m/s rewinding tool.

Hope this helps...it's a long journey...

[TLGriff]

1 hour ago, Watchoutnow said:

If this your first time at watch repair you may have a struggle getting this back together. You should read my comments about full plate reassembly. However, vintage American PW's are not a good place to start. If you want to practice watch repair, the Swiss Unitas movements like UT 6497 or 6498 (the newer ones are made by ETA who bought Unitas) or vintage UT 6325 are the place to start. Most watch courses recommend the Chinese clones of the 6497/6498 but I dislike the cheap way the balance shock clips are made and mine has a faulty swan neck regulator. 

Also, on the watch you disassembled, you might not be able to get the mainspring back in the barrel without a proper and expensive m/s rewinding tool.

Hope this helps...it's a long journey...

Thanks for the response.

The reassembly thing did cross my mind as I was breaking it down, and I looked into various techniques to do it. I will be sure to check out your comments on the subject as well. 

As far as the mainspring goes, if I am unable to wind it by hand, I may just buy the one winder I need, reverse engineer it, and make additional sizes as needed. Being a machinist has its rewards.

Tom

[Watchoutnow]

Hi Tom, being a machinist does have its benefits. Before the wide availability of replacement watch parts in the mid 20th century, watchmakers were expected to make their own replacement parts.  

I can see that your barrel has a slit for a "slotted T" mainspring which I was not able to reinsert by hand and you'll probably need a winding tool. 

Peter Grande has some good videos on Antique PW restores. I recommend the free AWCI video on servicing a UT6498, which is a completely different beast. And of course the complete set of watch repair tutorials by Alex Hamilton (It's About Time, The Watchsmith) for the basics.

Remember, all watchmakers lose and break parts. The more experienced ones don't do it as often and know how to recover from it faster.  And of course it doesn't hurt to have a full set of specialized very expensive tools that someone else is funding...J.

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, TLGriff said:

The balance was awol. I have a parts movement with the same balance that I plan on using

just a reminder I know Americans pioneered mass-produced watches with interchangeability of parts but did you notice something? Like for instance the serial number how many places can you find the serial number stamped on that watch? Did you look at the balance wheel did you notice the serial number scribed on that? there are several reasons why everything has serial numbers but the simplistic one here is that all the parts with serial numbers should stay together. basically the parts were machine together full 100% interchangeability hasn't quite occurred yet. Then things like the escapement are usually adjusted for each watch. So you start mixing and matching escapement components like the balance wheel or the pallet fork you're going to have to make some adjustments.

Oh and your serial number produces this

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/7456893

 

On 3/28/2023 at 12:49 PM, TLGriff said:

but I've decided to use Grandpa's Elgin pocket watch as my first victim. It hasn't run since I acquired it in 1966, so it'll be no great loss if I'm not succesful.

I do like your adventurous spirit of no great loss if you destroy this watch. Normally grandpa's watch might have sentimental value. typically on the group if you start with something inappropriate I might suggest it's inappropriate because of variety reasons today's reason is different. That's because did you notice how pretty this watch is? Look at the finish of the plates not just the parts of the plates that you see but notice all the finishing on the plates that no one will ever see except the watchmaker. do you not find that a bit strange why did they waste so much time finishing something that no one will ever see? Then look at the link above look how many of these they made less than 20,000 in other words they didn't make a huge quantity of this particular model of what looks like a pretty watch. 

5 hours ago, TLGriff said:

The reassembly thing did cross my mind as I was breaking it down, and I looked into various techniques to do it. I will be sure to check out your comments on the subject as well. 

As far as the mainspring goes, if I am unable to wind it by hand, I may just buy the one winder I need, reverse engineer it, and make additional sizes as needed. Being a machinist has its rewards.

as this is a full plate reassembly will be more challenging. Especially getting the pallet fork to stay in place strangely enough we recently covered that because I remember answering that question fairly recently you can do a search and see if you can find that.

then it's amazing what we've covered on this discussion group like we've already covered how to put that mainspring in. But the short version goes like this anything with a special  end needs to go in first and be locked in place before the rest the spring pops out or's hand wound in. If you think you're going to rotate the spring in the barrel to get it after you put it in that isn't going to happen well you might move in a little bit but typically it's really hard to move so it has to go in first

a mainspring winder is preferred I prefer a vintage set versus the modern winders for these. You wind your spring almost all the way end of the winder you leave a little bit is sticking out. Then all of that is put into the barrel rotated around  and get the T over the slot. Now comes the key thing you have to push it in and hold it there. Otherwise when the spring goes in for a Winder a pop back out again. Either use your largest screwdriver you have hold it down while you're popping it out or the backend your tweezers work.

3 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

Remember, all watchmakers lose and break parts.

yes it would be really nice when people are looking at the YouTube videos of how fun and easy watch repair is if the people making YouTube videos would point out that everybody breaks parts. But the chances of breaking parts when you start out is quite a bit higher much higher.

7 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

If you want to practice watch repair, the Swiss Unitas movements like UT 6497 or 6498 (the newer ones are made by ETA who bought Unitas) or vintage UT 6325 are the place to start. Most watch courses recommend the Chinese clones of the 6497/6498 but I dislike the cheap way the balance shock clips are made and mine has a faulty swan neck regulator. 

the reason why we recommend the Chinese clone is because it's cheap. To purchase a Swiss version 6497's going to cost how much more? Personally I tell everybody to start with a brand-new clean working 6497 clone. my recommendation to start with a brand-new running clone is it's running and you can see that it's running and ideally people should pay attention to what a running watch looks like but typically they do not as are eager to take it apart. Then they can taken apart put it back together again and see if it still running. Versus trying to learn to repair a broken watch when they have no idea what's wrong with a broken watch or how a watch even works or even how to put the watch back together without doing more damage. So if you start with something that's running and is not working when you put it back together it narrows down whose fault that it's. Then basically the Chinese watches are disposable it it's not a big loss. Everybody objects to the cost of everything in watch repair and starting off with the Swiss 6497 can be pricey. 

7 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

You should read my comments about full plate reassembly.

you will note that I added something to your comments

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/7456893