Alternative cleaning machine chemicals

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you sure it was a vintage bottle of shellac that George liked, i had a history teacher at school  that had a  vintage bottle that he dipped into every lunchtime.

you're treading on thin ice here. I rather liked George Lewis the instructor I had for watch repair. As far as I know he never dipped into alcohol although. although maybe that would've been helpful to deal with the problems of watch repair and then you have a classroom of students busy destroying those watches and have to deal with the school  bureaucracy plus variety of health issues maybe drinking would've been a good thing but the best of my knowledge he didn't drink.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

you're treading on thin ice here. I rather liked George Lewis the instructor I had for watch repair. As far as I know he never dipped into alcohol although. although maybe that would've been helpful to deal with the problems of watch repair and then you have a classroom of students busy destroying those watches and have to deal with the school  bureaucracy plus variety of health issues maybe drinking would've been a good thing but the best of my knowledge he didn't drink.

Haha. I step on thin ice everyday John. But certainly apologies if he was good teacher. We all had our favourites, and my history teacher was hilarious after lunchtime. 

[Waggy]

So here are the preliminary results for my "Home-Brew 111" cleaning solution:

0% Ammonia Recipe (Control):

As expected this produced a clear light liquid with no odour of ammonia.

0.5% Ammonia Recipe:

This produced a cloudy light liquid, with no smell of ammonia. No water layer seen (at this stage)

1.0% Ammonia Recipe:

This produced a clear light liquid, with very slight smell of ammonia. No water layer seen (at this stage). I was surprised to see that this was clearer than the 0.5% mix, so I repeated it, hence 2 bottles in picture.

1.5% Ammonia Recipe:

This immediately produced a thick liquid with the consistency of hand soap and was able to suspend air bubbles in the liquid for quite some time (see photo above) and had a distinct/strong smell of ammonia. No water layer seen (at this stage).

Preliminary Conclusion/Way Forward

After the 1.5% result I saw no point in continuing to 2.0% and above. My previous mix attempt produced the gel after it was left to settle for several days, so I will leave all of the samples for a while to see if there are any significant changes and report back, but so far it looks like the 1.0% recipe is looking good . 

[HectorLooi]

How are your trials getting along?

I'm wondering if the ammonium hydroxide listed in the MSDS is a red herring. Isopropanolamine is a by product of passing ammonia through isopropyl alcohol. Hence the faint ammonia smell from the 0% solution. 

Test the 0% solution for it's ability to brighten tarnished brass. I think it might just work. 

[Waggy]

The 0% and 0.5% ammonia mixes didn't smell of ammonia and the 0% still does not, and the 1.0% barely smelled of it, to be honest you probably couldn't identify the smell as ammonia in the 1.0% mix unless you knew it was there. However, I have just sniffed then and the 0.5% mix now has a very slight smell of ammonia and the 1.0% has a slightly stronger smell... but this may be because I have a fresh nose today and not used to the smell as it was yesterday after I finished mixing all the batches?

24 hours after mixing and no change from the initial results I reported above in terms of colours, separation of layers or viscosity etc..

[foppemike]

On 4/6/2023 at 9:36 AM, mikepilk said:

Ultrasonics are fine for cleaning - the professional cleaning machines all use it. 

Also, IPA is fine for a quick final rinse for ALL parts - again,  the pro machines recommend it. 

I get that but car manufacturers were recommending to change oil at 10k miles and we see how that went. I was not saying not to use but I would be more careful especially when doing a vintage watch movement. Again, to try to be smug like you. Would you do everything someone else tells you??? And I see "PROS" doing all different manners of things wrong too. I was stating an opinion and option but as always there will be someone to say I am wrong when you cant be wrong with an opinion and I stated it was an opinion not a "PRO" suggestion.

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, foppemike said:

I get that but car manufacturers were recommending to change oil at 10k miles and we see how that went.

How do you mean "how that went" - good or bad ?  10k oil changes went out years ago. We now have (in Europe) oil changes as long as 20k with no problem (as long as the correct synthetic oil is used). 

2 hours ago, foppemike said:

Would you do everything someone else tells you??? 

No I don't.  I have always lived by the motto of the Royal Society - "Nullius in Verba" (it means take nobodies word - work it out yourself). 

I'm not smug. I look at the evidence, and give the opinions of the 'pros' and the 'industry' more credence than some hobbyist who blew the shellac of one watch at home.  (I don't have any watch making qualifications, but some of the 'pros' on youtube seem to have some methods at odds to the general concensus).

As I said above, if professional cleaning machines (and the associated recommended fluids) caused damage, the first to notice would be people like @nickelsilver  and @JohnR725 who clean watches every working day. They would then stop using the machines or change the fluids/methods, and it wouldn't look good for the manufacturers in a competitive business.

Yes, you should be more careful with older movements - the shellac may be cracked. I've only been cleaning watches in an ultrasonic and IPA rinse for about 10 years. I have lost shellac from an old pallet and had loose jewels - but only because it was already aged and cracked. It would have fallen off in the ultrasonic whatever fluid was used. 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, if you believe ultrasonics are bad - don't use them.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, foppemike said:

I get that but car manufacturers were recommending to change oil at 10k miles and we see how that went. I was not saying not to use but I would be more careful especially when doing a vintage watch movement. Again, to try to be smug like you. Would you do everything someone else tells you??? And I see "PROS" doing all different manners of things wrong too. I was stating an opinion and option but as always there will be someone to say I am wrong when you cant be wrong with an opinion and I stated it was an opinion not a "PRO" suggestion.

Mike's comment a little misread and ill perceived on your part i think matey.  I'm not one to get in the middle of an argument , yes everyone has an opinion but suggesting being smug, a touch out of order wouldnt you say

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, foppemike said:

I get that but car manufacturers were recommending to change oil at 10k miles and we see how that went

I'm curious as to what you mean by this?. For instance my car I believe it's supposed to turn its warning light on and tell me I need to change my oil every 5000 miles.

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

How do you mean "how that went" - good or bad ?  10k oil changes went out years ago. We now have (in Europe) oil changes as long as 20k with no problem (as long as the correct synthetic oil is used). 

this is actually a very amusing discussion for me. It relates to a discussion I had with a friend in the UK a couple of months ago. What I learned Americans are stupid because we change our oil too often. I learned that I'm stupid because I'd like to have fog lights. I learned that my owners manual sucks because it doesn't show all the controls in the car because it's missing something that absolutely positively has to exist. Plus I find Europeans are stupid because you buy substandard tires.

Let's look at some links let's look at the first link I'm picking on the company Toyota who actually made my car in Japan except it says that it's a Sxion Xb.

the first link Toyota eight USA we discover something interesting. Traditionally with American automobiles 5000 miles or six months to get your oil changed. Oh and notice the reference to rotating those tires which is a waste of time to do in Europe.

https://www.toyota.com/owners/parts-service/maintenance-schedule

okay the next link is interesting because even though the number 5000 pops up quite a bit notice it's one year. Also if you get the newer automobiles  then you get your minimum of 10,000 miles or one year typically everybody's one year.

https://www.group1auto.co.uk/toyota/how-often-should-i-service-my-toyota

then depending upon where you live in the USA bike where I live they no longer have any kind of vehicle inspection and when they did have an inspection there only concerned about error quality they didn't care if your engine was going to explode were the wheels were to fall off or the car was 50 years old the only carried about error quality. Now they do no inspections at all. We typically Europeans have to get their vehicles inspected or else and on those yearly inspections that's when they'll get the oil changed.

Oh and to keep this message short the purpose of fog lights in United Kingdom are different than the purpose of fog lights in the USA. To track that one down I had the watch a review video of afford something where she finally got around to explaining the purpose the fog lights which is very different than they are in this country. I'll just leave that for another discussion

oh and what's wrong with my users manual is missing the mandatory knob? yes I had to look at a couple of owners manuals to track this down European cars have a knob that it can adjust the headlights depending upon how much weight in the car Americans do not. As a speculation it has to do with probably how big and heavy the vehicles are.

Oh and on substandard tires and tire rotations? The current tires that I purchased are good for 60,000 miles I think I went 30,000 miles on the tires that came on the car and they still had tread they were still street legal. Whereas my European friend found it impossible that a tire could go beyond 10,000 miles. Apparently tire rotation is not required in the UK because your tire wear out before it's time to rotate the tire.

10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I'm wondering if the ammonium hydroxide listed in the MSDS is a red herring. Isopropanolamine is a by product of passing ammonia through isopropyl alcohol. Hence the faint ammonia smell from the 0% solution. 

now to keep what the discussion titled so I don't get yelled at. It may not be a red herring it may be technically correct in a way. it may be possible when you read and material safety sheet that in a way what they're telling you is you can smell the ammonia gas the same as you would from ammonium hydroxide. If you spill the fluid especially on human beings it probably reacts with the water in our skin and maybe it becomes ammonium hydroxide. Maybe what they're telling us is the ammonium substance behaves like ammonium hydroxide and you should treat it as such without actually saying that it isn't actually that at all it just behaves like that.

Remember material safety sheets were not meant as DIY instructions on how to make something

On 4/12/2023 at 6:37 AM, Waggy said:

"Home-Brew 111" cleaning solution:

then why did you go back to the website and get all the material safety sheets I'm reasonably sure they have cleaning products without ammonia. The ammonia I rather like because it's what makes the plates bright shiny but if it's going to be a problem the manufactured you really have to have shiny plates. Because in real life the most important thing for watch cleaning is that things be clean and shiny is just for us. So maybe we should look at some of the other solutions that don't have ammonia in them they may be easier to manufacture.

Or just make the water-based cleaning products which I'm not a big fan of. Everyone's had their bad experience which is why some people won't use without we've already seen all the things people will use. My experience with my clock cleaning solution was tap water is not what you want to be using. Because tap water has a lot of oxygen in it and oxygen in a water-based clock cleaner when cleaning a clock results in rust on everything that was steel. Because it does a really nice job of removing everything off the steel making it very clean and really nice for rusting. Plus I learned that problems of elevated temperature for cleaning I would he knew it was bad for watch solution but the clock solution then frosted the brass plates. Which resulted in me having to do a heck of a lot of unnecessary polishing. So if the water was distilled or deionized and did not have any oxygen in it it would be a lot better which is probably why they recommend it. In a case it may just be easier to manufacture a water-based cleaning product.

 

 

 

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Oh and on substandard tires and tire rotations? The current tires that I purchased are good for 60,000 miles I think I went 30,000 miles on the tires that came on the car and they still had tread they were still street legal. Whereas my European friend found it impossible that a tire could go beyond 10,000 miles. Apparently tire rotation is not required in the UK because your tire wear out before it's time to rotate the tire.

This surprised me. I was amazed when a friend who worked in the US told me he bought tire guaranteed for 50k miles. Here in the UK, 20k miles is considered good (10-15k for front wheel drive). It's down to the hardness of the material used in the tires. Your tires are very hard, last a long time, but don't grip as well (that's why in US movies car tires squeal when they corner). We have smaller roads, roundabouts, and more corners where grip is more a priority. If we had lots of long straight highways, we too may have harder tires which might last 50k miles.

I have always been amazed when I read that in the US you change car oil every 3-5k miles. Back in the 70-80s we used to. But since the 90s it's been 10k+, and since about the 2000s up to 15-20k (variable depending  driving style). My last few cars (BMW) have been up to 20K.  They have larger capacity (7L) and use fully synthetic oil. Being an engineer, I was very wary about claims that an engine could safely go 20k miles on the same oil without damage. But I've seen plenty of evidence that it's not a problem. e.g 

For the last 10-15 years millions of cars have been running in Europe using the long oil change schedule. If there was a problem, we would have millions of smoky cars with warn out engines.  We have pretty strict emission regulations here, and if they burnt oil, they would fail the tests. Guess what - we don't have a problem. Your oil companies are doing a good job selling you all that oil !

Lubrication - always good for a discussion 

[LittleWatchShop]

I love this forum.  I love @JohnR725 because he puts an edge on every blade. 

I have three vehicles not counting the John Deere Tractor.  Two of them are beyond 100K miles.  I do the oil changes myself.  Sometimes I make a mistake and get the wrong oil, like 5W-30 vs 5W-20.  I dont throw the mistake away,  No.  I took chemistry. Remember very little, but I do know how to do mixtures.  I just mix up some 5W-23 and get the job done.  Sometimes it is 5W-24.  I really don't care. My truck doesn't care either. I have even skipped changing the filter when I forget to order one on Amazon!  At the end of the day, the guys selling this stuff are trying to make a profit, so you have to take that into account when looking at the recommended intervals.  Go look at the expiration date on that acetaminophen.  Yeah, you need to toss it in the can.  Nope.  That sh!it will last forever.  I saw a government study about efficacy of meds over time and the reality is that those expiration dates mean almost nothing.

But...none of what I just said is horological.  So, lets get back on track.

Cleaning solutions are a mystery to me, so I just buy L&R because I worked my @ss off for so many years designing circuits, I have lots of money so I can send Ofrei a few bucks to get the bona fide stuff.  I have thought about mixing my own brew but I have also thought about DIY cardiac ablation to calm down my PVCs, but there are some things you should just not try.

I will end with a reference to one of my other posts.  I don't buy into the five or six different oils from Moebius.  I use one oil, maybe two.  That is it. Good enough for my Dad, good enough for me.

For anyone who reads this 30 years from now...I AM AN AMATEUR WATCHMAKER.  ANY ADVICE FROM ME IS TAKEN AT YOUR OWN RISK. 

I leave you with this

[Waggy]

OK so I'm going to call it, here are my winning solutions:

Non-ammoniated cleaning solution (AKA 566):

Ammoniated cleaning solution (AKA 111):

Rinse solution (AKA 3 rinse):

Notes:

• All the recipes above are for 1 Lt (1000ml) but you should have enough information to scale up or down to suit your needs
• The non-ammoniated cleaning solution does settle to form a 2 phase liquid, but this does not seem to affect the cleaning ability (I have now done 2 watches with this solution and they came out sparkling!) additionally the agitation of the cleaning machine should mix them well enough during the cleaning cycle.
• The ammoniated solution is very sensitive to the ammonia concentration (I used a syringe and found if I was only 0.5ml over the solution would gel up and 0.5ml under and it would remain cloudy)  - I always added the ammonia last and if too much ammonia was added it would instantly form a gel, however I have found that adding additional Oleic acid can reverse this.
• Rinse solution is difficult to dry (as is the L&R rinse 3) so you will need to follow the same procedure you use for using L&R rinse 3 to remove it - I plan to either use a 30 second IPA wash or a 30 second 100% naptha wash. But IPA is a highly contentious issue in watch cleaning, so you are all adults and can decide for yourself what you are comfortable with!

I managed to find the stoddard and naptha on Amazon as they are both Klean Strip products (confirmed by reviewing the MSDS sheets) - I could have obtained the Oleic acid from Amazon also, but decided to use a local lab chemical supplier for this as the price was better. I also used the lab chemical supplier for the other chemicals shown above. Most of the chemicals seem fairly benign to handle, but I would still recommend you use caution and the correct PPE. However, the ammonia (25%) is very strong so I would recommend you decant your large bottle into smaller bottles for easier handling and use a fume cupboard if you are fortunate to have one or alternatively handle it in a very well ventilated area and keep your distance as much as possible as the fumes sting your eyes and take your breath away the instant you open the bottle!

Good luck, and let me know your findings if you try the above!

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Waggy
typo/spelling/grammar

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I have always been amazed when I read that in the US you change car oil every 3-5k miles. Back in the 70-80s we used to. But since the 90s it's been 10k+, and since about the 2000s up to 15-20k (variable depending  driving style)

I think you're exaggerating a little on those low numbers in other words they may be a little on the high side. when I purchased my car was looking up how often I should change the oil and I'm reasonably sure I saw at least some people doing unit 2000 miles. I just now did a quick look online and apparently the old rule of 1000 miles or three months is out of date.so in this particular cited saying anywhere from 7500 – 10,000 or one year. But it's back the following the manufacturer's recommendation which is we know from looking at websites in the UK and the US seem to vary by quite a bit?

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

Rinse solution is difficult to dry (as is the L&R rinse 3) so you will need to follow the same procedure you use for using L&R rinse 3 to remove it - I plan to either use a 30 second IPA wash or a 30 second 100% naptha wash. But IPA is a highly contentious issue in watch cleaning, so you are all adults and can decide for yourself what you are comfortable with!

what would be interesting to see is the chemical makeup of the cleaning fluids from a very long time ago I don't want to say how long ago cousin all feel really old. But when I was in school I don't remember the cleaning fluids ever having a problem drying. But I do remember when I was cleaning watches at home the L&R rinse despite lots of airflow and getting really hot just wasn't a vamp writing at all. As where a friend told me was using alcohol. The alcohol that will dissolve shellac but I'm not in there long enough to do that like 30 seconds never had a problem at home. I brought this up before the very expensive Elma cleaning machine at work as recommended by Elma the last rinse is isopropyl because it wasn't drying. Just remember you just need to rinse off the rinse should really take very long to do that if you're really worried about your shellac disappearing which I've never noticed. Even in the bad alcohol I've never had a problem. te.

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

Amazon

out of curiosity since you have Amazon I imagine Amazon is not identical across the planet but did you ever look up watch cleaning fluids on Amazon? I don't know if that have free delivery but in the USA last time I looked they did have watch cleaning fluids made by L&R . Did a quick look and $120. Looks like it even qualifies for free shipping. But I imagine that does not qualify for free shipping anywhere in the planets I wonder what happens if you look up cleaning fluids in your Amazon what will happen?

[Waggy]

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

out of curiosity since you have Amazon I imagine Amazon is not identical across the planet but did you ever look up watch cleaning fluids on Amazon? I don't know if that have free delivery but in the USA last time I looked they did have watch cleaning fluids made by L&R . Did a quick look and $120. Looks like it even qualifies for free shipping. But I imagine that does not qualify for free shipping anywhere in the planets I wonder what happens if you look up cleaning fluids in your Amazon what will happen?

Here is what happens when I try and ship from Amazon US to the UAE:

[JohnR725]

14 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Here is what happens when I try and ship from Amazon US to the UAE

I know Amazon has other locations like the UK I suppose the same thing happens?

it just seems strange that cleaning fluid can be purchased in the country somewhere?

[aac58]

3 hours ago, Waggy said:

Rinse solution is difficult to dry (as is the L&R rinse 3) so you will need to follow the same procedure you use for using L&R rinse 3 to remove it - I plan to either use a 30 second IPA wash or a 30 second 100% naptha wash. But IPA is a highly contentious issue in watch cleaning, so you are all adults and can decide for yourself what you are comfortable with!

To avoid extracting the balance and the pallet fork before rinsing in IPA, I've been using for several months now Hexane instead of IPA. It dries very quickly, doesn't hurt shellac, and leaves no residue at all. I'm happy with that so far.

[Waggy]

My go to is hexane for anything that may contain shellac, problem is that it evaporates sooooo quickly

[stevemilw]

Here in the UK I managed to buy 10L of Naphtha from eBay delivered. Surprisingly they delivered it to my neighbour when I was out! Check out Parcelforce's website and they said its strictly forbidden to ship flammable liquids. Wasn't happy, but I did manage to buy some though.

I have an issue with my Elma Ammonia cleaning solution where it leaves behind a visible cloudy residue behind on stainless steel surfaces after air drying. Is this normal for an ammonia based product? It is only removed by rubbing. 

[mikepilk]

1 minute ago, stevemilw said:

I have an issue with my Elma Ammonia cleaning solution where it leaves behind a visible cloudy residue behind on stainless steel surfaces after air drying. Is this normal for an ammonia based product? It is only removed by rubbing. 

Do you mean Elma Suprol Pro ?  I've never noticed any residue being left by that, but I always do a 30s IPA rinse.

[stevemilw]

15 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Do you mean Elma Suprol Pro ?  I've never noticed any residue being left by that, but I always do a 30s IPA rinse.

Its Elma Luxury Clean Red 1:9. https://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Elma-1:9-Concentrate-Solution-500ml-prcode-997-1335?gclid=CjwKCAjwo7iiBhAEEiwAsIxQEUijftqBxcifQSmmy_QX7ddClEYvGRcXfXvbBUV7jL0vsUQgUqmQYxoCUNQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, stevemilw said:

ts Elma Luxury Clean Red 1:9.

we need a little more details like exactly how do you use the product. Another was what exactly is your cleaning procedure

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, stevemilw said:

Here in the UK I managed to buy 10L of Naphtha from eBay delivered. Surprisingly they delivered it to my neighbour when I was out! Check out Parcelforce's website and they said its strictly forbidden to ship flammable liquids. Wasn't happy, but I did manage to buy some though.

I have an issue with my Elma Ammonia cleaning solution where it leaves behind a visible cloudy residue behind on stainless steel surfaces after air drying. Is this normal for an ammonia based product? It is only removed by rubbing. 

Eyup Steve I have the same problem with the Elma WF pro ammoniated,  im thinking it need the correct rinse to go with it. I'm curious to know where you got the naptha and what its description was. 

[mikepilk]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyup Steve I have the same problem with the Elma WF pro ammoniated,  

Is this the normal Elma WF Pro, or do they do a version with ammonia ?

Elma WF Pro has <1% ammonia. 

9 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

  im thinking it need the correct rinse to go with it. 

I use Elma Suprol Pro rinse and haven't noticed any residues (as I said above, I finish with 30s IPA rinse) - but it does pong a bit 

[stevemilw]

I'm using it diluted with water 1:9 ratio in my watch cleaning machine for about 5 mins. Then I move it out of the liquid, spin dry it for 10s, then into a rinse of naptha. Sometimes I use water then naptha, but its similar results. Perhaps the other non-ammoniated blue solution they sell is better. Ammonia is only meant to shine brass after all.

With regards to the naptha, you can just search on ebay and there's loads for sale. I just searched Naptha..

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by stevemilw

[aac58]

I use Elma Red and rinse first with water and then with hexane, and haven't noticed any residue. I used naptha in the past and I think it doesn't mix well with water, so that could be your problem.