Alternative cleaning machine chemicals

[praezis]

1 hour ago, lxt123 said:

on the other hand, it does not have any brightening agents and the metal is not as shiny as with the specialized cleaning solution.

Maybe an added shot of ammonia solution will give you the missed gloss. 

[Galilea]

On 6/20/2023 at 12:31 AM, lxt123 said:

6 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

In my opinion gold is a poor choice for watch cases.  Too soft and at higher karats looks like brass. Good quality modern watches come in stainless Steel, tungsten and ceramic, along with gold.  I don't think the case material relates to the quality of the movement. 

The alcohol is displacing the water and is no risk of rust. This method was used since the beginning of watchmaking (other detergents probably not Dawn) without any problems. Since the used of modern lubricants the manufacturers are promoting special solutions for more money.
As long as you do not immerse the pallets and other parts that have shellac in alcohol and the transition time from water based washing cycle to the first alcohol bath is very short, you shouldn't have a problem.

I have used it many times and Dawn does an incredible cleaning job, on the other hand, it does not have any brightening agents and the metal is not as shiny as with the specialized cleaning solution.

I also use the water based bath when I have just one or two repair jobs followed by a longer period of time when I'm busy with other things or I'm travelling.

I never had any problem with using the water based procedure when the movement was pegged and pre-cleaned as it should be.

 

On 6/20/2023 at 12:31 AM, lxt123 said:

When I run out of supplies, I use slightly above body temperature distilled water and Dawn (dish detergent) followed by two alcohol rinses and drying. T

How much water to the two drops of Dawn? I tried that a few months back on a dial, and must have had two much soap because it was going very well until  - whoops! Cleaned the "Ova" right off the "Bul" (and here I thought they didn't have any ).  I am pretty sure there is no putting it back.

Thereafter I surely used the alchohol incorrectly, as it was in the form of two martinis down the hatch.

Yes, I am starting the course here tonight, and surely need it. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Galilea said:

 

How much water to the two drops of Dawn? I tried that a few months back on a dial, and must have had two much soap because it was going very well until  - whoops! Cleaned the "Ova" right off the "Bul" (and here I thought they didn't have any ).  I am pretty sure there is no putting it back.

Thereafter I surely used the alchohol incorrectly, as it was in the form of two martinis down the hatch.

Yes, I am starting the course here tonight, and surely need it. 

Some dial finishes are extremely delicate Gal, even distilled water alone can remove lettering and varnishing. If in doubt start with the most gentle method imaginable and at the far edge of the dial to get a feel for the dial's reaction. And if you know its delicate then leave it well alone. As far as i know there is no ' Bul ' brand of watch. You could make this your first custom diy dial face.

[signcarver]

I read most of this thread so please forgive if this has been asked / answered ...

Do you put a lid on the jar containing either the naptha cleaner or the IPA rinse?

What temperature do you set the Ultrasonic to?

Should i be concerned about heating either of these fluids (flash point, explosion)

[mikepilk]

2 minutes ago, signcarver said:

I read most of this thread so please forgive if this has been asked / answered ...

Do you put a lid on the jar containing either the naptha cleaner or the IPA rinse?

What temperature do you set the Ultrasonic to?

Should i be concerned about heating either of these fluids (flash point, explosion)

I put lids on the jam jars I use for cleaning solutions in the ultrasonic - just to reduce the smell in the house. There is no increase in pressure in the jars, and no risk of fire or explosion (assuming you don't have any naked flames nearby). 

I don't usually put a lid on the final rinse IPA, as it's only 30s, and I don't mind the smell  (but I have, and again, no rise in pressure in the jar).

I set the U/S to slightly warm, about 30C. Room temp is OK.

[signcarver]

19 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I put lids on the jam jars I use for cleaning solutions in the ultrasonic - just to reduce the smell in the house. There is no increase in pressure in the jars, and no risk of fire or explosion (assuming you don't have any naked flames nearby). 

I don't usually put a lid on the final rinse IPA, as it's only 30s, and I don't mind the smell  (but I have, and again, no rise in pressure in the jar).

I set the U/S to slightly warm, about 30C. Room temp is OK.

@mikepilk Thanks, as always, Mike!!! I was doing my cleaning cycle at 30 s, for 25 minutes and the same for the rinse in IPA. Sounds like i'm overdoing it on the IPA though.

[mikepilk]

26 minutes ago, signcarver said:

@mikepilk Thanks, as always, Mike!!! I was doing my cleaning cycle at 30 s, for 25 minutes and the same for the rinse in IPA. Sounds like i'm overdoing it on the IPA though.

You were doing 25 mins in IPA .  If that includes the balance or pallets, you won't have any shellac left - that's why it's only recommended to do about 30s in IPA.

25 mins is way too long. The instructions on Elma WF Pro cleaner suggest 2-8mins, and Suprol Rinse about 3mins.

I do 5 mins in Elma WF Pro cleaner. Then 3 mins in Elma Suprol Rinse in rinse jar 1, then the same again in rinse jar 2, Then 30s IPA.

If using naphtha, you need at least 2 jars of naphtha, then rinse IPA

Edited August 9, 2023 by mikepilk

[signcarver]

1 minute ago, mikepilk said:

You were doing 25 mins in IPA .  If that includes the balance or pallets, you won't have any shellac left - that's why it's only recommended to do about 30s in IPA.

25 mins is way too long. The instructions on Elma WF Pro cleaner suggest 2-8mins, and Suprol Rinse about 3mins.

I do 5 mins in Elma WF Pro cleaner. Then 3 mins in Elma Suprol Rinse in rinse jar 1, then the same again in rinse jar 2, Then 30s IPA.

I never did the pallets (luckily). What the heck was i thinking... Dammit Jim! 

[mikepilk]

2 minutes ago, signcarver said:

I never did the pallets (luckily). What the heck was i thinking... Dammit Jim! 

If you did the balance, you need to check that the roller jewel is secure, and re-shellac if necessary.

[signcarver]

Yes, i did ruin a 1940's Bulova 7AP movement Balance and until now, didn't know why. Luckily none others probably because i haven't done that many movements. I have immediately stopped that practice thanks to you!

I always cleaned the pallets in One Dip.

I think where i went astray on the balance was that in many videos i watched, they put the balance back on the mainplate and then cleaned that way to protect the balance. BUT they use a watch cleaning machine which i imagine uses different cleaning solutions, heat, and time than i was doing in my ultrasound. 

Thanks for putting me on the right path!

[mikepilk]

11 minutes ago, signcarver said:

I think where i went astray on the balance was that in many videos i watched, they put the balance back on the mainplate and then cleaned that way to protect the balance.

That is the correct way, IF the balance has shock protection.  I remove the shock protection, and clean the balance+cock fitted to the main plate in the ultrasonic. 

BUT If like your Bulova, there is no shock protection, I remove the balance, and clean it in the ultrasonic in a small mesh container alone (just the balance+hairspring), so it can't bounce around and damage he hairspring.

[signcarver]

Mike, so just so i understand correctly, it is OK to clean the balance in Naptha for 10 minutes or so, but then just do a quick rinse (1-2 minutes) in IPA.

[mikepilk]

19 minutes ago, signcarver said:

Mike, so just so i understand correctly, it is OK to clean the balance in Naptha for 10 minutes or so, but then just do a quick rinse (1-2 minutes) in IPA.

10 mins in an ultrasonic should be fine in naphtha - you might find less cleans OK. I find 5 mins does the job.

1-2 mins is IPA is fine for any parts without shellac, BUT for parts with i.e. pallet and balance, 30 seconds is the maximum recommend time. For old aged shellac, you are probably OK with 1-2 mins, but shellac does dissolve in IPA. There are endless discussions above about this, some people refuse to use IPA at all on shellac, but the manufacturers of pro cleaning machines recommend a 30s rinse, so I do it. 

[signcarver]

I'm taking your suggestion and doing only 5 minutes in Naptha. I have a good quality ultrasound machine (Elma EP 30H). More isn't always better.

Also, thanks for clarifying the IPA cleaning times. 

 

[mikepilk]

1 minute ago, signcarver said:

More isn't always better.

Exactly - especially when oiling . 

You may find 5 mins isn't enough, but it's best to do the minimum needed.

[JohnR725]

12 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Exactly - especially when oiling 

it depends upon whose guideline your following. Originally when I was in school I was taught that if you can't see the lubrication around the pivot you've done good. But if you look at modern Rolex or Omega the rule is as long as you can see the top of the pivot you've done good. But you go beyond that well then you've done bad.

13 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

You may find 5 mins isn't enough, but it's best to do the minimum needed.

the problem with this discussion is the title is Alternative cleaning machine chemicals which brings up the problem of exactly which chemicals you using? Usually the commercial cleaning products will give you timing recommendations sometimes whether you should elevate the temperatures or not.