Alternative cleaning machine chemicals

[Waggy]

On 3/17/2023 at 10:57 AM, Waggy said:

So here is the spec for L&R 566 cleaning fluid from their publicly published MSDS sheets:

And here is what I can get my hands on locally compared to the chemicals used in their MSDS:

I can get the mineral spirits and naptha from Amazon and the rest of the chemicals from a local lab supplier. The only substitution I need to make will be the 2 Propoxyethanol (which is ETHYLENE GLYCOL MONOPROPYL ETHER) which I will substitute with ETHANEDIOL (which is ETHALEVE GLYCOL) and given that it is only 1-5% I think this will be OK.

In a similar vein L&R 111 cleaning fluid formulation from their published MSDS sheets:

This will be a little more difficult as I will have to again substitute the 2 Propoxyethanol (as above) but this time I would need to omit the Isopropanolamine completely as I cannot find an alternative - but good news is that I can get the ammonium hydroxide (30%) from my lab supplier.

I am thinking that I will go with the "566" version and if it works, stick with that as it only has one minor substitution. So my recipe for 1 Lt of "566" cleaning solution will be:

(The above also minimises the amount of the substituted 2 Propoxyethanol)

Fortunately the rinsing solution is much easier to deal with, the MSDS sheets show:

 

 

So my Recipe for 1 Lt of rinsing solution will be:

 

For the record I would much prefer to use the 'real' products but until there is a way to purchase or ship them to my location I will have to go with my 'home brewed' alternatives.

If anyone sees anything wrong or an easier way to do things in the above please let me know.... if not I'll let you all know how it turns out when I get all the supplies together.

Quick update:

• Cleaning fluid 111: Fail... this resulted in a cloudy liquid (when I added the 30% amonia solution) which then (after a few days) formed a jelly compound in the bottom 1/3 of the mixture, I mixed and warmed to 60 C but still couldn't get the gel to go back into solution, and after a few mins I again had a gel 1/3 layer in the bottom of the jar - anyone with a chemistry background who can help??
• Cleaning fluid 566: Success... this formed a 2 phase solution where about 1/2 of the fluid floated on the other half, but after shaking for a few seconds the mixtures would mix long enough to decant into jars for use in cleaning
• Rinsing solution: Success... the ingredients easily mixed together to form a clear liquid

I used my 566 and rinse solutions above to clean a watch and the parts came out sparkling clean, although the rinse solution took heat to evaporate unlike straight naptha which I had used prior to this. So I'll continue with my home brew 566 and rinse solution unless anyone out there can help to resolve the 111 gel issue.

[JohnR725]

19 minutes ago, Waggy said:

when I added the 30% amonia solution

don't ask how I know this because I only have a fuzzy memory of possibly adding some ammonia to a regular watch cleaning product and no it doesn't work. But the 30% ammonia solution is at a water-based solution versus a solvent solution which is what the watch cleaning products are?

20 minutes ago, Waggy said:

although the rinse solution took heat to evaporate unlike straight naptha which I had used prior to this.

it depends upon how much heat and air flow your needing to use. One of the problems with modern watch cleaning rinse is it doesn't like to evaporate anymore. They've changed to more friendly solvents and other words are not as volatile. So the current recommendation is that the final rinse should be fewer isopropyl alcohol. So that would rinse off the final rinse and that will evaporate. Then no isopropyl alcohol does not hurt shellac we use it in the machine at work all the time and things come out just fine. Even the alcohol that will dissolve shellac which is what I use at home if you're in there for just a few seconds isn't enough time to hurt the shellac and then you immediately dry you'd be just fine.

another thing you might try is finding ancient books on watch repair which typically would be most of our books anyway. But civic of find a book that talks about cleaning before commercial cleaning fluids were available they perhaps might have a recipe. If you look in the clock cleaning or references the clock cleaning they will usually give a recipe with ammonia but it's a water-based cleaner. That's also where you typically will see the oxalic acid that comes up and clock cleaning fluids also. Plus the liquid ammonia because of course it's all water-based.

[Waggy]

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

So the current recommendation is that the final rinse should be fewer isopropyl alcohol.

Do you mean pure IPA (99%)?

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

the 30% ammonia solution is at a water-based solution versus a solvent solution which is what the watch cleaning products are?

This puzzled me also, using a water based product in hydrocarbon based solution, but I looked up the CAS number of the ammonium hydroxide quoted in the 111 MSDS information (CAS 1336-21-6) and the CAS data refers to a 28-30% ammonium hydroxide/water solution:

 

Perhaps they have a process where they allow the ammonia to dissolve from the water into the hydrocarbon and then take off the water?

[JohnR725]

26 minutes ago, Waggy said:

pure IPA (99%)?

yes that is exactly what I mean. Apparently it was recommended by Elma for our very expensive machine at work because the rinse just wasn't  drying even with heat which was the same thing I found which is why someone it recommended alcohol I'm just using the inappropriate alcohol but I only have the watch in there for a few seconds and then right onto the dryer it's not an issue.

so it is a water base the problem with the material safety sheets are there not a DIY of how to mix up the product and there must be a process because as you found out mixing water in with the solvents it does not this will all go? I believe for Elma for their water-based cleaner there solvent-based rinse is recommended as a rinse for the water base which implies that it must dissolve the water? Or at least the water must go into the solution so maybe you need a different solvent that's more friendly for water.

 

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

Quick update:

• Cleaning fluid 111: Fail... this resulted in a cloudy liquid (when I added the 30% amonia solution) which then (after a few days) formed a jelly compound in the bottom 1/3 of the mixture, I mixed and warmed to 60 C but still couldn't get the gel to go back into solution, and after a few mins I again had a gel 1/3 layer in the bottom of the jar - anyone with a chemistry background who can help??
• Cleaning fluid 566: Success... this formed a 2 phase solution where about 1/2 of the fluid floated on the other half, but after shaking for a few seconds the mixtures would mix long enough to decant into jars for use in cleaning
• Rinsing solution: Success... the ingredients easily mixed together to form a clear liquid

I used my 566 and rinse solutions above to clean a watch and the parts came out sparkling clean, although the rinse solution took heat to evaporate unlike straight naptha which I had used prior to this. So I'll continue with my home brew 566 and rinse solution unless anyone out there can help to resolve the 111 gel issue.

I don't get it. Why are you adding ammonia solution to these waterless cleaners. The waterless cleaners are oil based and ammonia is water based. And oil and water don't mix.

BTW, 111 already has an ammonium compound that brightens brass.

The gel that you get is a soap. This is what happens when you mix oil with an alkali.

[Waggy]

19 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I don't get it. Why are you adding ammonia solution to these waterless cleaners. The waterless cleaners are oil based and ammonia is water based. And oil and water don't mix.

BTW, 111 already has an ammonium compound that brightens brass.

The gel that you get is a soap. This is what happens when you mix oil with an alkali.

I'm trying to replicate 111, not add to an existing off the shelf supply.

[JohnR725]

14 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I don't get it.

that's because you're missing the key element which is where ever on the planet this person exists apparently commercial cleaning fluids do not exist and cannot be purchased. This is why a DIY approach is now in effect.

16 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Why are you adding ammonia solution to these waterless cleaners. The waterless cleaners are oil based and ammonia is water based. And oil and water don't mix.

BTW, 111 already has an ammonium compound that brightens brass.

The gel that you get is a soap. This is what happens when you mix oil with an alkali.

outstanding somebody who grasps chemistry. Any idea how to make a DIY watch cleaning product and its associated rinse? Even though the claim was the cleaning product is working the fact that it's not actually mixing together is a bit problematic. let me quote that down below

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

Cleaning fluid 566: Success... this formed a 2 phase solution where about 1/2 of the fluid floated on the other half, but after shaking for a few seconds the mixtures would mix long enough to decant into jars for use in cleaning

 

[HectorLooi]

Oooh.... replicate 111. Cool!

I'm paying SGD $180 for a bottle of 111. If anyone comes up with a good solution, (pun intended), I'll send him a bottle of champagne! 

[Waggy]

As @JohnR725states, I cannot get these solutions (111/566/3 Rinse) where I live or get them imported as they are classed as dangerous goods, hence my attempts to make a home-brew version. I'm not tied to these products, so if anyone has another recipe I am more than happy to try it.

I had assumed (hoped?) that the ammonia would leach out of the aqueous solution and enter the solvent(s), leaving behind a very dilute ammonia/water layer of around  +/- 35 ml (in  a 1 lt mix, see below) which I could drain off after gravity and time had worked it's magic. However, I was left with a mix that had the gel layer which was more like 300ml with no obvious water layer to drain.

Below is the recipe I tried for my 'home-brew 111':

[nickelsilver]

This is water based, but was promoted by Gruen at one time (way back).

 

The Finnish clock cleaning solution (mentioned in the above link) I use (and make) is:

1 L 99% isopropyl alcohol

3L distilled water

50g oxalic acid

60g oleic acid

then ammonia added to the above mixture (warm), it all goes cloudy, keep adding and stirring until it goes clear. It happens quite suddenly, and is the  point where the ammonia has fully "consumed" the oleic acid, making a soap. From experience it's around 80g of 24% ammonia.

 

With both you would do water rinse, finishing with iso alcohol to absorb the water, then dry with heated air flow.

 

 

[Waggy]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

yes that is exactly what I mean. Apparently it was recommended by Elma for our very expensive machine at work because the rinse just wasn't  drying even with heat which was the same thing I found which is why someone it recommended alcohol I'm just using the inappropriate alcohol but I only have the watch in there for a few seconds and then right onto the dryer it's not an issue.

Thanks for the clarification - I'll add a quick IPA rinse to my setup, maybe 30 seconds to remove the rinse, but not enough to start attacking the shellac on the balance/pallet fork.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

Thanks for the clarification - I'll add a quick IPA rinse to my setup, maybe 30 seconds to remove the rinse, but not enough to start attacking the shellac on the balance/pallet fork.

On this forum, we have widely differing opinions and experiences letting Shellac get in contact with IPA. In my experience, just a few seconds of exposure to IPA can make the Shellac start to dissolve. Other much respected professional watchmakers report a minute or so is no problem whatsoever. I'm not interested in another debate as I've made up my mind based on previous discussions and experiences. I just felt like sharing my personal point of view. I would personally never let Shellac anywhere near IPA.

EDIT: On most modern watches (less than 70 years or so old) the impulse pin is friction-fitted, so no problem soaking it in IPA for however long.

Edited April 10, 2023 by VWatchie

[mikepilk]

7 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I would personally never let Shellac anywhere near IPA.

So you disagree with the manufacturers of watch cleaning machines. If they damaged parts wouldn't the first to know be the pro's who clean watches daily, and stop doing it?

[nickelsilver]

VW, full respect here, but I've serviced many, many, vintage pieces using isopropyl alcohol as the final rinse, with zero issues. The machine I used mentioned 30 seconds rinse for balance and pallets. But being a lazy guy I often left those parts through the whole cycle of 15+ minutes and while I might have added a bit of shellac to pallet stones after all that, I never lost an impulse jewel.

 

On the other hand, to fully remove shellac I use the method in the Levin book, part in a test tube, 1/3 or so filled with ethanol, over a flame. Boil like hell and avoid ignition of the vapors.

[Waggy]

OK, so my next plan for my home-brew 111 is to increase the Oleic acid % and reduce the ammonia % to keep the mix acidity and avoid the formation of soap, then hopefully all I will need to do at the end is remove the water layer once the ammonia has leeched out from the water into the solvent. So the range of Oleic acid is between 10% to 5%, so I'll mix 100ml batches each with 10% Oleic acid and then start increasing the ammonia from 0% concentration in 0.5% increments until I find the percentage of ammonia that starts to form gel/soap.

Any comments/ideas/suggestions?

15 hours ago, Waggy said:

Thanks for the clarification - I'll add a quick IPA rinse to my setup, maybe 30 seconds to remove the rinse, but not enough to start attacking the shellac on the balance/pallet fork.

Perhaps a better solution would be to perform a final rinse in 100% naptha, this would remove any worries about shellac and also remove the issue of the drying? what are proples opinions?

Here are the recipes I'll use -

0.0% Ammonia (Control):

0.5% Ammonia:

1.0% Ammonia:

1.5% Ammonia:

2.0% Ammonia:

2.5% Ammonia:

3.0% Ammonia:

I know from my previous batch that 3.5% Ammonia produces the gel/soap, so no need to repeat that, obviously if I find a solution that starts to produce the gel/soap I will not proceed with trying higher concentrations - I'll try and make these over the weekend and let you know which (if any) is the winner!

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Waggy
Typo

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, mikepilk said:

So you disagree with the manufacturers of watch cleaning machines.

No, not really, it's just that I base my opinion on my personal experience. As mentioned, I have no real need to debate it any further than I've already done in other threads. I just wanted to share my conclusion for what it's worth.

7 hours ago, mikepilk said:

If they damaged parts wouldn't the first to know be the pro's who clean watches daily, and stop doing it?

Your statement makes perfect sense, and I wish I could share the opinion/experience that Shellac isn't affected by IPA when treated for just a few seconds. Unfortunately, I can't, and it's a mystery to me 

Edited April 11, 2023 by VWatchie

[HectorLooi]

Please watch this video. It has really confused me to the point that I only clean balance assemblies and pallet forks by hand in benzine.

[JohnR725]

51 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Please watch this video. It has really confused me to the point that I only clean balance assemblies and pallet forks by hand in benzine.

we've discussed this before. It seems to be that differing people have differing experiences. also for his test he has a whole bunch of identical pallet forks may be there the problem. I wonder where those test pallet forks came from maybe they were rejected from the factory for some reason like they dissolve in isopropyl alcohol?

17 hours ago, VWatchie said:

On this forum, we have widely differing opinions and experiences letting Shellac get in contact with IPA. In my experience, just a few seconds of exposure to IPA can make the Shellac start to dissolve. Other much respected professional watchmakers report a minute or so is no problem whatsoever. I'm not interested in another debate as I've made up my mind based on previous discussions and experiences. I just felt like sharing my personal point of view. I would personally never let Shellac anywhere near IPA

who would've thought that isopropyl alcohol has reached the status of horological lubrication as a controversial subject.

Oh we do have another minor issue what exactly is shellac? Yes we all know what it is it's the stuff that holds the pallet and the roller jewel in place but what exactly is it? I'm sure some enthusiastic person will look it up for us which is why I'm not doing it. the reason I bring this up is is it conceivable that shellac is not exactly the same substance universally over time and space? I remember when I was in school the instructor George liked his vintage bottle shellac versus the modern bottles. Don't remember why just remembered he liked his vintage bottle then as I accumulated shellac over time I discovered that some of it does seem to flow in work better than other bottles. Then my current favorite was somebody distributing flake shellac because they had the purchase I think a pound of it from the painters store. So it's flake shellac used for varnish I believe and this stuff has a really beautiful flowing characteristic. So is it conceivable that the shellac is somehow different which is why we have differing experiences?

 

9 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

On the other hand, to fully remove shellac I use the method in the Levin book, part in a test tube, 1/3 or so filled with ethanol, over a flame. Boil like hell and avoid ignition of the vapors.

you didn't say how long it takes to dissolve the shellac on the pallet fork for instance? Second set the elevated temperature of a minute or two how fast would you guess. The reason I bring this up is that same alcohol that you use which will dissolve shellac even at room temperature if you leave it in there long enough is the same substance I use for my final rinse at home. Purchased because it was inexpensive at the hardware store and I needed alcohol for final rinse how was I to know that alcohol was so evil and bad but at least it's not isopropyl as it seems to have a more evil reputation. So yes I know it dissolves shellac but I only have the watch parts in there for 30 seconds or so just enough to rinse off the previous rinse it goes right into the dryer and I never had a problem.

The video above is a bit troubling because the machine at work does use ultrasonic two separate frequencies spins things uses a vacuum to make sure that everything gets everywhere it's supposed to be. Uses a final rinse of isopropyl alcohol and the best of my knowledge I've never seen a pallet fork come out with all that shellac missing.

So I have a theory whatever lurks in the night or whatever that you fear is what's going to get you. So if you fear isopropyl alcohol and watches keep it away from the watch otherwise you'll probably dissolve the shellac and the pallet fork. then to a certain degree we have too many variables here including conceivably modern factories that might not even be using shellac. If the factory doesn't have to adjust the pallet fork there is no need to use shellac to hold the stone and they could conceivably even use  a variety of glues or epoxy and who knows how they're going to behave with isopropyl alcohol or for that matter any other cleaning fluids.

 

 

 

[Waggy]

All,

Whilst I find the discussion on IPA/shellac highly valuable and it is related to general cleaning it is not specifically related to Alternative cleaning machine chemicals, therefore, could we port this particular topic to another thread - I would like to retain the focus of this thread on the Alternative cleaning machine chemicals. I don't mean to be bossy, I just don't want the core discussion wandering down a well trodden rabbit hole.

[HectorLooi]

Shellac is bug poo.

Years ago, one of my suppliers gave me a bottle of an ultrasonic cleaner that jeweller have been using. It is water based and was really good in brightening metals.

Rather than reinventing the wheel, maybe you could check if any jeweller's supplier in your country has a suitable cleaner.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

No, not really, it's just that I base my opinion on my personal experience. As mentioned, I have no real need to debate it any further than I've already done in other threads. I just wanted to share my conclusion for what it's worth.

Your statement makes perfect sense, and I wish I could share the opinion/experience that Shellac isn't affected by IPA when treated for just a few seconds. Unfortunately, I can't, and it's a mystery to me 

I have the same approach to using water based cleaners. It only takes one bad experience to put you off using something permanently. Your circumstances involved were probably different to other folk's but that wont necessarily change your view. If like me you will take some convincing to try it again.

[Waggy]

I tried that, but they refust to talk to me, I think they think I will be going into competition with them. Most of the jewelers here are either big expensive show rooms (think Rolexs's dripping in gold and diamonds) which farm out the repair work, or one-man back street jewelers who are very suspicious of people asking them for their 'trade secrets'. I made about a dozen enquiries and they all refused to supply or let me know where they got their equipment and cleaning fluids from.

[JohnR725]

34 minutes ago, Waggy said:

where they got their equipment and cleaning fluids from.

this does provide a minor clue. In other words they are not using DIY cleaning fluids or DIY cleaning machine's that means they must've come from somewhere. Perhaps inquire from the manufacturers of the cleaning fluids how you would purchase the cleaning fluids in your country.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 I remember when I was in school the instructor George liked his vintage bottle shellac

Are you sure it was a vintage bottle of shellac that George liked, i had a history teacher at school  that had a  vintage bottle that he dipped into every lunchtime. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[tomh207]

26 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you sure it was a vintage bottle of shellac that George liked, i had a history teacher at school  that had a  vintage bottle that he dipped into every lunchtime. 

I do know from trying to dip into French polish that shellac varies tremendously. Not that I was very successful with that.

 

Tom