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55 minutes ago, stevemilw said:

then into a rinse of naptha. Sometimes I use water then napth

I assume you read the fine print on the bottle?

just in case I have the image below. See what a mix the concentrate in the proper amount. Then notice what it says is to be rinsed in distilled water. This is extremely important because tapwater depending upon where you live can have bad stuff in it. So is very important to use distilled water. I don't see the wording of using naptha anywhere on the instructions? There is a reference to using their rents but their rents will apparently displace water in other words it will dissolve water I don't think naptha dissolves water. That may be a problem there.

 

Elma water-based use.JPG

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The tap water where I live is very hard, and definitely leaves a film.

Naphtha is also used as a cleaner, so you are effectively using two cleaners, rather than a cleaner and a rinse.  After changing to the distilled water rinse, and drying, you could do a final 30s rinse in IPA to get rid of any residual contaminants and moisture.

Edited by mikepilk
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8 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Naphtha is also used as a cleaner, so you are effectively using two cleaners, rather than a cleaner and a rinse.

that technically isn't correct. I've attached a brochure and a snippet out of the brochure.

Cleaning is actually a multi-step process at technically the whole thing is cleaning. Because each step reduces the concentration of bad stuff on the parts until hopefully all the bad stuff is gone. So it isn't purely cleaning and rinsing it's basically all cleaning. It's just the first step is more aggressive at cleaning.

Then if you read through the brochure somewhere they do say that the suprol Pro which is used as a rinse actually does do cleaning.

So whether you using solvent or the water-based the first solution is the cleaning the primary cleaning and not even sure if that's technically correct. But the first solution has stuff for more aggressive cleaning.

Then what you want to do is rinse off the solution which is now covering the plates. So everything that went in the solution is now covering everything.  this means that the rinse itself is actually a cleaner it's removing the concentration a bad stuff covering everything and putting that in to solution. Then you really should do more than one rinsing. as you do want to reduce the concentration of bad stuff on the plates down to as low as you can.

Then of course there are obsessed with their suprol Pro as a rinse because it also removes the concentration a bad stuff and apparently it will do a little more cleaning on the plates. But I know some people in the group object to that. So for that I would just use more water rinsing and then follow-up with isopropyl alcohol. Because you want something at the very end to take away as much of the moisture as you can and make it easier to dry.

 

 

elma cleaning p.JPG

Elma Brochure_Chemistry_WatchCleaning_EN.pdf

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I was thinking of an experiment today because I was suspicious of something. so to confirm my suspicion a beaker a couple of drops of food coloring in this case red little water and toss in some Naphtha.

the food coloring is so we can see the water. My suspicion was confirmed that Naphtha is floating on top of the water. I not sure why it's cloudy perhaps it did absorb a tiny bit of water but it basically doesn't play well with water. In other words it looks to me like it be a very poor rinse for water-based cleaning product.

water and things do not mix with it.JPG

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Naptha is basically a mix of several mineral oils made from distilling petroleum - and oil floats on water. When I use a water based detergent in my ultrasonic and then follow it with a wash in Naptha I sometimes get little cloudy water droplets in the bottom of the container if I didn't dry off completely. Not sure why its cloudy though.

Edited by Waggy
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29 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Naptha is basically a mix of several mineral oils made from distilling petroleum 

I think thats the problem with napha, depending where its processed we dont know exactly what we are getting. Its composition isn’t consistent enough from plant to plant to be a reliable enough cleaner. Lighter fluid was my cleaner when i started, it was ok but quickly discovered its drawbacks, too much variation from brand to brand and it does contain extra ingredients besides naptha. I still occasionally drop back to using it experimentally, the mirror test is a good indication of residual leftovers. Try IPA that can leave a white outer ring after evaporation. The mirror needs to spotlessly clean before testing. 

10 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

As @Waggy says, Light Naphtha is a petroleum distillate - a type of oil, and it leaves oily residues. Which is why I questioned it being used as a rinse. I would use it before the Elma Red, then distilled water and IPA rinses.

Actually Mike, I'm wondering if any oil based cleaner such as naptha is going to cause problems. Oil can be a bugger to shift in any situation. You know when you've cleaned paintbrushes with white spirit how much fairy you then need to remove that and how greasy your hands are. I'm thinking not to introduce any oil composition into cleaning and stick with alcohol. That oil residue is going to spread from rinse to rinse adding to what is already coming off the old oil lubrication of the parts.

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I guess that the cleanliness of your cleaning and rinse fluids play a big part in deposits left behind - these solutions don't make the dirt and grease disappear, they simply dissolve them the same as water dissolves salt. Once the solvents evaporate they leave behind the gunk that cannot evaporate - just like the salt crystals you grew in chemistry class. Hence, if your fluid is new and what you are cleaning is relatively clean to start with the concentration of gunk dissolved in your solvent will be low and it will then leave behind less gunk when it evaporates. The opposite must therefore be true, if you have well used (dirty) solvent, the concentration of gunk will be higher and then 1 ml will leave behind more gunk than 1 ml of the same clean solvent when it evaporates.

The same must be true of IPA, ethanol or other similar compounds also, not just naphtha or off the shelf cleaning solvents and rinses. If your IPA is anything but pure IPA (for example) they must leave behind what they took into solution once they evaporate leaving behind a residue. Therefore, I throw the question out there; would switching to alcohol make things better, unless you changed it very regularly..... but then you could argue the same for the oil based solvents; would they also be just as good as IPA if you change them more regularly??

Perhaps the difference is that new untainted IPA and ethanol are a single chemical and not a blend and will evaporate completely, but maybe untainted solvents like naphtha can only partially evaporate as some component(s) may not evaporate and be left behind? But as soon as the IPA touched the gunk on the first watch it is no longer pure and will dump the gunk when it evaporates, which may explain why new IPA will pass the mirror test but I suspect used IPA will not? So maybe the first few washes with IPA would be better than solvents, but I think after that there wouldn't be much difference in terms of deposits left behind?

So perhaps the solution (pardon the pun) would be to change your cleaning fluid as soon as you start to see deposits, not just when the fluid in the jar starts to look like over brewed tea?

Edited by Waggy
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10 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I guess that the cleanliness of your cleaning and rinse fluids play a big part in deposits left behind - these solutions don't make the dirt and grease disappear, they simply dissolve them the same as water dissolves salt. Once the solvents evaporate they leave behind the gunk that cannot evaporate

this is why the cleaning process is a multi-step process. A cleaning fluid to put everything in the solution. A variety a rinses to reduce the concentration of bad stuff down to the point where you can dry the watch and it will be nice and clean.

12 minutes ago, Waggy said:

more regularly

someday I really need this study the programming of the machine at work and how many cleanings we do before we change the fluids. What about if your container of cleaning fluid is relatively large. Then the concentration a bad stuff will take over much longer time to become bad then if you had a much smaller container. so the machine at work is a Elmasolvex® VA this is a very interesting super complicated machine that does a fantastic job of cleaning. All the fluid is moved by producing a vacuum in the cleaning chamber and the fluid is drawn into the chamber. One cleaning cycle three rinse with the last one being isopropyl alcohol. Then at some point time the machine will remind us to change the fluid and conveniently it has a button which says remind me later. I'm guessing they probably change the fluid may be every six months? But how much fluid is in each of the containers? I think of the containers is round have to gallon each it looks like the specification is 2.5 L. So with a container of cleaning fluid and rents that large it's going to take a long time before the concentration becomes an issue.

Usually what happens when you have smaller containers of fluid is that you change some of it on a more regular basis. In other words you keep your cleaning fluid until it no longer cleans. Then you toss the first rinse as it gets dirty then rotate all the rest of them then you fill up the last one with new rinse. So as you're not changing all the fluids all of the time.

then out of curiosity I was looking at what Omega recommends. For the machine like we have it work there recommending 50 cleanings before replacing the fluids. I know we don't use ours every day so I don't actually know how many cleanings before we change the fluids. On the other hand how dirty are watches really anyway? Although on one occasion I did do a pre-cleaning of a watch that had literally been drenched in oil because I wasn't going to run it through the cleaning machine because it was really really

then for the machines that use less fluid than ours they recommend 10 cycles. I would probably consider these numbers minimalistic if you're a hobbyist is trying to stretch your cleaning dollars. Probably what the real key year is to have enough rinsing cycles to reduce the concentration down until the plates are clean.

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I love an experiment 😀 - so i cleaned some glass, and put puddles of Elma Suprol Pro rinse, "pure" Naphtha and 99.9% IPA. Then dried with a hairdryer.

1. There is a very slight film from the Elma,  when in sunlight almost iridescent, so it must only a molecule or two thick.  I guess that is why they suggest a final IPA rinse.

2 A significant residue from the naphtha, which feels oily to the touch - I can leave fingerprints in it.

3. No visible residue from IPA (the marks on the edge are where the naphtha leaked across)

image.thumb.png.cf361413df0a703ee4b995541ca66e2c.png

 

image.png.10d02a21206d8055796da2e63c2ec5b2.png

image.png.e4edd8526a57e7326071e3bf4b8108e3.png

Edited by mikepilk
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22 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I assume you read the fine print on the bottle?

just in case I have the image below. See what a mix the concentrate in the proper amount. Then notice what it says is to be rinsed in distilled water. This is extremely important because tapwater depending upon where you live can have bad stuff in it. So is very important to use distilled water. I don't see the wording of using naptha anywhere on the instructions? There is a reference to using their rents but their rents will apparently displace water in other words it will dissolve water I don't think naptha dissolves water. That may be a problem there.

 

I can confirm this has fixed the issue. I'll read the fine print next time! Interestingly the distilled water turns a hazy blue after a rinse, not sure what chemistry is happening there. 3rd rinse is clear.

Edited by stevemilw
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56 minutes ago, stevemilw said:

the distilled water turns a hazy blue after a rinse,

I don't like hearing about hazy blue unless others on the group can confirm the same thing. What color is the cleaning fluid didn't turn blue? Then how long are you leaving it in the cleaning fluid and have you elevated the cleaning fluid temperature?

7 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I love an experiment

I was hoping somebody would say that because you have something that I don't have to do an experiment with. I've only done one third of this experiment that's the water with food coloring and the "pure" Naphtha. I suppose I could do the alcohol one but I don't have isopropyl alcohol at home I use the bad alcohol that will dissolves shellac but it's not an issue I'm not in there long enough and I'm not using line with water-based cleaner. So could you repeat the rest of my experiment using the isopropyl alcohol and the Suprol Pro mix a little food coloring with water in small container. Pour a small quantity of each of these in the container and see how well they mix. I suspect the alcohol will mix 100% with no issues but in having concerns about Suprol Pro. Even though Elma loves it so much problem because they make money from it. When I was reading its descriptions and its reference of using it with water there was a reference that it may float on the waterside wondering how well water really dissolves in this or not? Although maybe to work it doesn't actually have to dissolve the water may be the wording is it displaces the water. Displacing doesn't necessarily mean it mixes. So the words you drop your wet watch although I would think ideally you'd want to spin it off so it has less water but you drop your wet watch into a container of this may be the water will be displaced without dissolving. But I'm still curious as to whether it floats on top of water are not.

Then the reason why Elma recommends isopropyl alcohol for final rinse is for the same reason I discovered I needed to use alcohol at home for final rinse. Is that the rinse won't dry. At both home and work were using a or one of the L&R rinses and my experience at home was it absolutely will not drive no matter how much air or seat you put on the watch. But a quick dip in alcohol there's no problem with the drawing. That's my understanding what we been told for that very expensive cleaning machine at work it has to have the final alcohol rinse if you want the watch dry.

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

So could you repeat the rest of my experiment using the isopropyl alcohol and the Suprol Pro mix a little food coloring with water in small container. Pour a small quantity of each of these in the container and see how well they mix.

Will do, as soon as I can find some food colouring. 

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15 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

food colouring.

seeing that reminded me I left the beaker on the kitchen counter and it slightly is changed since yesterday. Yesterday the floating Naphtha was milky colored you couldn't see through it at all. Lots today it's interesting in that the whole thing is clear. The water with food coloring is still clear red. The floating layer is transparent and on top is a very thin layer of red? Not quite sure what that is. I'll have to go and play with that more later get a picture of how nice and clear it is and then mix it up and see what happens again.

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I don't have any food colouring @JohnR725 😟, so I improvised. The blue water comes from the toilet cistern 🤣

The Elma Suprol does not mix at all - there is a very clear boundary between water and Suprol. After stirring they separate out in a few seconds.

The IPA mixes completely - as expected.

image.png.8e9078562ca6b03b3216bb0d7a654bfa.png

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19 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

The Elma Suprol does not mix at all

that was the suspicion I had when I was reading the technical literature where it actually says it floats on water. This means to be using this with a water-based cleaner we would need to understand what it means by its displaces the water? It would also mean that as it floats whatever your rinsing does not want to be in the bottom because all your waters going to end up in the bottom of the jar or whatever your cleaning in. Not as dramatic separation is this but anything that's wet obviously the water will go to the bottom.

so if you read Elma's description of the cleaners the Suprol does actually do a little cleaning because it is a solvent and it will remove residue off of whatever. So I do find it interesting that it is the recommended fluid on a water-based clean whereas it looks like may be using a little more water in other words more than one  rinsing and some alcohol at the end would be a better approach.

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On 4/13/2023 at 9:14 PM, LittleWatchShop said:

I don't buy into the five or six different oils from Moebius.  I use one oil, maybe two. 

yup. I think I commented on this and agreed saying, those little glass vials are expensive. If it doesn't have a science project growing in it, I'm using it. forget expiration dates and spending $$$ on multiples. 

On 4/13/2023 at 9:14 PM, LittleWatchShop said:

I AM AN AMATEUR WATCHMAKER.  ANY ADVICE FROM ME IS TAKEN AT YOUR OWN RISK.

agreed!

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4 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

yup. I think I commented on this and agreed saying, those little glass vials are expensive. If it doesn't have a science project growing in it, I'm using it. forget expiration dates and spending $$$ on multiples. 

do you have recommendations of what we should be using?

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On 5/1/2023 at 8:29 PM, JohnR725 said:

I don't like hearing about hazy blue unless others on the group can confirm the same thing. What color is the cleaning fluid didn't turn blue? Then how long are you leaving it in the cleaning fluid and have you elevated the cleaning fluid temperature?

Cleaning fluid is red. Its a very faint blue. I think it's just because the light is scattered as there is solution is suspension, a bit like how light scatters in the sky making it blue. There is no heating of the fluid. Left it in the cleaning solution spinning for 5-10 mins

Edited by stevemilw
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35 minutes ago, stevemilw said:

faint blue

it would be really helpful if others using the same cleaning fluid could report back. The reason I got excited about the blue coloring is traditionally when you're using the solvent-based if you leave it too long in their something interesting happens but interesting isn't necessarily good. The cleaning fluids that have ammonia the ammonia is what makes the plates bright and shiny. But  if you leave it for too long in the solution or EL of the temperature which speeds things up the solution can turn various shades of blue and/or green and that's the copper in your plates being etched out. In other words you can actually frost plates. Worst-case example is if you go on vacation makes some professional watchmaker once did it was asking in another group if anyone would have a replacement movement because it had largely dissolved. But that would take an entire week or so in the cleaning fluid not likely normally happen. Then the water base I know what I cleaned my first clock with the clock water-based solution I don't recall the solution turning blue but I do recall the plates frosted. My guess was good as the water was warm so keep an eye on things you might want to cut your cleaning time back down to closer to the five minutes. Anytime I'm using the cleaning fluid at home five would be the maximum I would do it more like four minutes to avoid this sort of thing. The rinsing solutions of course are no problem typically it's only the cleaning fluid can get a little aggressive but maybe this is normal for your water base solution.

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20 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

do you have recommendations of what we should be using?

good one John. Two words for you: amateur and hobbyist. so that would be a hard nope. all the debate about oils? I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. 

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20 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

good one John. Two words for you: amateur and hobbyist. so that would be a hard nope. all the debate about oils? I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. 

I think you misunderstood my question.

 

On 5/1/2023 at 2:45 PM, MechanicMike said:
On 4/13/2023 at 7:14 PM, LittleWatchShop said:

I don't buy into the five or six different oils from Moebius.  I use one oil, maybe two. 

yup. I think I commented on this and agreed saying, those little glass vials are expensive. If it doesn't have a science project growing in it, I'm using it. forget expiration dates and spending $$$ on multiples. 

let's look at what I was responding to. We have littlemachineshop commenting about the quantities of oil supposedly required. He's not discussing the properties he's just only discussing quantities.

Then your comment is about the expense. My question is alternatives? Were not discussing properties of the lubrication and other words horological lubrication is only expensive if we can compare it to another horological lubrication. Because if you look at everything used in watch repair it seems expensive. So I'm just ask if you have a cheaper horological lubrication other than the standard recommended? Because if there is not something to measure the cost of lubrication against then it's not really expensive unless of course you want to compare it to automobile oil but that's not the same kind of oil. Just like a cleaning machine used in watch repair seems expensive compared to make a dishwasher in the kitchen but they're not relevant. So do you have a relevant oil used in horology that's cheaper than the current recommendation that's all I was asking otherwise the cost of the current oil may seem expensive compared to vegetable oil in the kitchen but it's not relevant the size is little tiny bottles last forever almost at least that's the way I like to think about it I'm never going to upgrade my oil again because I perceive it last forever at least at home and the network I don't care about it that's not my problem. Although I think several of our bottles may have expired by now I wonder why that is?

So my basic question is in order for something to be more expensive you have to have a comparison and it has to be a relevant comparison.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

When I run out of supplies, I use slightly above body temperature distilled water and Dawn (dish detergent) followed by two alcohol rinses and drying. The alcohol is displacing the water and is no risk of rust. This method was used since the beginning of watchmaking (other detergents probably not Dawn) without any problems. Since the used of modern lubricants the manufacturers are promoting special solutions for more money.
As long as you do not immerse the pallets and other parts that have shellac in alcohol and the transition time from water based washing cycle to the first alcohol bath is very short, you shouldn't have a problem.

I have used it many times and Dawn does an incredible cleaning job, on the other hand, it does not have any brightening agents and the metal is not as shiny as with the specialized cleaning solution.

I also use the water based bath when I have just one or two repair jobs followed by a longer period of time when I'm busy with other things or I'm travelling.

I never had any problem with using the water based procedure when the movement was pegged and pre-cleaned as it should be.

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