Barrel-Spring help

[stvn66]

Hi,

Can a watch with a broken barrel-spring work correctly for a few days and then loose 30 minutes for no apparent reason?

Thank you

[HectorLooi]

Short answer - no.

[ScrewDropper]

What is it that led to an initial diagnostic of a broken mainspring? Was this the only question as it may be a better question to say something along the lines of “I have a <make and model and, if you have it movement> that is x years old and has exhibited problem y since z. Here is a picture of watch. This is a picture of the movement. I have tried <things you have tried> and this is what I have found: <things you have found>. Do you have any advice of what I should do next?

[stvn66]

I had a vintage watch serviced/repaired by the same watchmaker twice within a few months and it still lost 30 minutes after working fine for 3 days and then 2 days, three weeks later. The watchmaker requested I return it a third time to him but I sent it to Longines UK who forwarded the watch to Switzerland.

This was in their report:-

The barrel-spring is broken
The balance amplitude is too narrow
Several components of your watch are severely damaged
The barrel-spring is broken
Your watch reached us with a damaged middle
Your watch needs a complete maintenance service

Am I right to ask for a full refund of the money I paid to the UK watchmaker?

[mikepilk]

What is the movement - Is it an automatic ? 

[watchweasol]

Hi the reports is very generalistic, ok m/s broken, what’s the several parts damaged ?. Amplitude is low probably because the spring is broken. And what’s a damaged middle. Ok sounds like it needs a good dose of looking at by a competent watchrepairer and get a second opinion. Don’t be suckered into blindly accepting their report. But don’t tell the repairer you had it checked you want an honest appraisal. Then compare the two reports and if they confirm your suspicions then look to getting a refund of the previous charges from the first repairer. Get the watch back from Switzerland post pictures of the movement and case so the members here may help you.       Cheers

[RichardHarris123]

How does a watch run at all with a broken main spring?  

[Nucejoe]

You could have measured its actual power reserve, to compare with nominal reserve of your watch.

I wouldn't be surprised if I find mainspring broken in a watch that  reserve 20hrs of power .

Losing 30min/24hrs isn't normally associated with mainpsring, unless its a selfwinder and the max power it holds is  like an hr or two, on bench. 

History of the watch, how old?  how many times serviced?  last time serviced?    helps. 

I think the judge will ask you,   shouldn't he( the repairman) have had a chance to make it right?  

Hard to prove,

If your watch is really damaged,

Who damaged your watch,

Nothing to loose if you show the Longine service report to the local repairman and see what does or answers.

Good luck pal.

 

 

 

 

[watchweasol]

Hi Richard. We all assume a broken spring means no power but it depends where the sprin is broken! At the arbour or the outer anchor point/bridle. If the former it’s dead you cannot get any power but if it’s the latter the outer coils can still grip the walls and you can get a few and the watch will run, not very well but it will run. If you keep on winding the spring will slip and all power is lost

[stvn66]

Thank you very much for all the information, very grateful.

The watch is manual and I felt that if I sent it to another watchmaker it would simply be one watchmakers word against another but if I sent it to Longines then the assessment cannot be contested?

I spent a lot of money to have this watch serviced, it was originally gaining one minute every hour.

I have emailed/posted a copy of this report to the watchmaker and still waiting for a reply, I have asked for a full refund!

 

[JohnR725]

On 3/12/2023 at 7:11 AM, stvn66 said:

Your watch needs a complete maintenance service

On 3/12/2023 at 7:11 AM, stvn66 said:

I had a vintage watch serviced/repaired by the same watchmaker twice within a few months and it still lost 30 minutes after working fine for 3 days and then 2 days, three weeks later. The watchmaker requested I return it a third time to him but I sent it to Longines UK who forwarded the watch to Switzerland.

By the way it would be extremely helpful in this discussion if you would tell us the movement number.

Then when sending your watch to the factory service agent or the factory they follow the procedure.

First off you use the word vintage as I said it be extremely helpful have a movement number. Then the UK service provider or factory sent the watch to Switzerland. That tells us it it's definitely vintage because typically anything vintage goes the factory in Switzerland.

Then service providers and the factory follow procedures. The procedures are not necessarily the same as the service manual and very definitely not the same as what a watchmaker does in the field.

For instance if it was a newer watch I know people work in the local Swatch service center. Their procedure is they just replace the entire mainspring barrel assembly because they can. Anything they don't like they just replace. They basically restore the watch back to a new condition.

If it's a vintage they won't have the components of service center service center only go back a certain quantity of years that it has to go to the factory. If they're following the same procedures like Rolex does that look at the watch and everything that doesn't meet original factory specifications will be replaced. Whereas a watchmaker the field may decide that the components are just fine and they may actually be just fine but they like to restore everything to brand new. Which becomes quite pricey on a vintage watch as they usually do charge way more for vintage anyway.

So basically they don't look at the watch everything it doesn't look original factory will be replaced the run at timing analysis of it's not within the specifications of the technical literature then rather than trying to troubleshoot the original watchmaker though just recommend an entirely new servicing. It's a lot easier to service a watch and restore it back to its original condition that it is to try to figure out what someone else did and even if you did you not going to warranty it so only with a complete servicing can they do what they need to do and guarantee it.

 

On 3/12/2023 at 7:11 AM, stvn66 said:

Your watch reached us with a damaged middle

I wonder what This is trying to tell us?

19 hours ago, stvn66 said:

The watch is manual and I felt that if I sent it to another watchmaker it would simply be one watchmakers word against another but if I sent it to Longines then the assessment cannot be contested?

As you're finding out that's not exactly correct. The factories not looking at this as a I wonder what the previous watchmaker did so we can update the customer they're looking at this like it's not within specifications were going to restore it back the factory specifications. About all your finding out is that it doesn't meet factory specifications.

19 hours ago, stvn66 said:

I spent a lot of money to have this watch serviced, it was originally gaining one minute every hour.

Usually unless you've lost all faith in the watchmaker you should try to get the watchmaker to fix the problem. As soon as you get other people involved the watchmaker can claim that the other people screwed up there servicing because now other people Have touched the watch.

 

[stvn66]

Thank you very much John for taking the time to answer so many points.

I have already sent this watch to the watchmaker twice and felt a third time would be just wishfull thinking.

I did not add the first part of the assessment in this chat as it was on a seperate page and I did not think it that relevant but if you look at the last line it reads 'The movement lubricants are dry' and this really disturbs me.

I am no techie but how on earth can a fully serviced watch have this come back in its report?

I have been collecting watches for years and used to use John Senior who was brilliant but has retired so I tried this new watchmaker.

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by stvn66

[stvn66]

Is it possible that as stated in the report 'movement lubricants are dry', could have lead to the barrel-spring failing after I had worn the watch for only 5 days in total?
A ticking time bomb just waiting to happen, I imagine a car engine without oil that would seize up and in the process damage the engine?

Edited March 14, 2023 by stvn66
spelling

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, stvn66 said:

'movement lubricants are dry',

The problem is what is the definition of dry?

for instance when I was in school I was taught if you put lubrication on a pivot and if the instructor cannot see the lubrication because of capillary action it's between the pivot and the jewel you've done well in other words super minimalistic. But what is the current definition of the quantity of lubrication to be applied? Oh and it also depends upon who you ask or what you look at.

For instance at the attached PDF page 8 the acceptable quantity would have been considered excessive at one time. Then the maximum quantity would upset a lot of people. So if you had a watchmaker doing  what they were taught 20 years ago or whatever super minimalistic then by modern standards it would look dry.

But yes dry and toss in a little rust and it wouldn't occur in five days but you can do a lot of destruction with a little rust and watch and I have seen barrels basically scrapped afterwards they had to be replaced because everything was ground-up.

 

8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins.pdf

[stvn66]

Thank you again John.

My concern is that this goes to court and he comes back at me with techie jargon.

What I know as undisputed fact is that he has had this watch on two separate occasions, the first occasion was a full service and the second occasion to correct errors from the first occasion (all within two months).
He offered to take it back a third time and pay the postage but I declined.

I now have the manufacturers assessment and do feel vindicated in that there appears to be so much wrong with the watch.
I cannot do any more to prove my corner and that I feel I should receive a full refund.

Edited March 14, 2023 by stvn66