Proper oiling of jewels with capstones: train and balance

[Watcherwoman]

Hello all,

my first post requesting advice, so much thanks to any who can assist. 
 

my question is on the proper oiling of jewels with capstones. Up until now, I’ve worked with few capstones, usually just on the balance jewels. I believe I have it pretty down pat. But my repair books and online searching have yet to be clear on whether or not I’m also supposed to fill the oil cup that is beneath said capstone. On the balance I’ve just been oiling the capstone, not the cup beneath it. Is this incorrect? 
 

now I have a watch with caps on the train wheels, and I strongly question this past assumption. See photos - I believe now I should be oiling both the cups AND the caps. Can someone confirm? And should I have been doing the same with the balance all along? 
 

i also question my pallet/escapement oiling method, but will post that in a separate thread. Thank you, I look forward to being part of the forum!

[Kalanag]

There shouldn‘t be any oil cup beneath the cap jewel imho

 

[Watcherwoman]

1 minute ago, Kalanag said:

There shouldn‘t be any oil cup beneath the cap jewel imho

 

That’s what I used to think, but upon turning over the train bridge, there are indeed cups on the underside. So if I were to fill them, I would have to do so prior to assembly. 

[HectorLooi]

Are you refering to the 3 jewels on the train bridge with the Bulova mark?

Those are ordinary hole jewels. The oil cups as you call them are not meant to filled to the brim, like a reservoir. You just need enough oil around the pivot to form a meniscus. It's a bit hard to see with low power loupes. I didn't really understand the correct amount of oil to use initially until I started using my microscope. 

[Watcherwoman]

1 minute ago, HectorLooi said:

Are you refering to the 3 jewels on the train bridge with the Bulova mark?

Those are ordinary hole jewels. The oil cups as you call them are not meant to filled to the brim, like a reservoir. You just need enough oil around the pivot to form a meniscus. It's a bit hard to see with low power loupes. I didn't really understand the correct amount of oil to use initially until I started using my microscope. 

They are definitely cap stones as they have no oil cup. Just a convex cover with the flat underside. Watch just got out of the cleaner, so I’ll take more pics. 

9 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Are you refering to the 3 jewels on the train bridge with the Bulova mark?

Those are ordinary hole jewels. The oil cups as you call them are not meant to filled to the brim, like a reservoir. You just need enough oil around the pivot to form a meniscus. It's a bit hard to see with low power loupes. I didn't really understand the correct amount of oil to use initially until I started using my microscope. 

Here are some more photos. Hopefully this shows what I mean. The only cups present are on the underside of the bridge when it is flipped over. The top of the bridge shows these jewels with a flat surface. You then screw on the capstone, which I just realized is convex on BOTH sides, no flat side as I previously thought.  

[Kalanag]

26 minutes ago, Watcherwoman said:

…The only cups present are on the underside of the bridge when it is flipped over…  

 

As HectorLooi said: don‘t fill the cups on the underside with oil. These cups are good for guiding the pivots into the holes when mounting the bridge.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Kalanag

[Watcherwoman]

7 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

As HectorLooi said: don‘t fill the cups on the underside with oil. These cups are good for guiding the pivots into the holes when mounting the bridge.

Ok so just to confirm, the only oil for the train wheels on this particular type of watch would be the small bead on the capstones? Does the same go for the balance? Thank you again. 

[Kalanag]

38 minutes ago, Watcherwoman said:

Ok so just to confirm, the only oil for the train wheels on this particular type of watch would be the small bead on the capstones? Does the same go for the balance? Thank you again. 

Yes! 

[Watcherwoman]

Just now, Kalanag said:

Yes! 

Ok, relieved to know my initial assumption was actually accurate! Thank you to all again. 

[nickelsilver]

Yes, don't fill the cups- but you can oil them with the caps assembled by oiling the cup, then feeding the oil through with a fine pin, it will pull in and suck against the cap jewel by capillarity. Check that you have oil on the cap 1/2 to 2/3 of its surface. This is standard technique for non-shock (screwed together) jewel assemblies.

 

Normally the hole jewel is convex when used with a cap jewel, this keeps the oil centered. Cheaper watches with caps will often have flat hole jewels working with flat caps- and the oil tends to run away. Bulova was high quality- the cap is convex where it faces the hole jewel; this does the same as a convex hole jewel.

[JohnR725]

I think a picture might help.

[Watcherwoman]

31 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I think a picture might help.

Thank you!!!

 

35 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Yes, don't fill the cups- but you can oil them with the caps assembled by oiling the cup, then feeding the oil through with a fine pin, it will pull in and suck against the cap jewel by capillarity. Check that you have oil on the cap 1/2 to 2/3 of its surface. This is standard technique for non-shock (screwed together) jewel assemblies.

 

Normally the hole jewel is convex when used with a cap jewel, this keeps the oil centered. Cheaper watches with caps will often have flat hole jewels working with flat caps- and the oil tends to run away. Bulova was high quality- the cap is convex where it faces the hole jewel; this does the same as a convex hole jewel.

Very thorough and much appreciated! 

[watchweasol]

Hi A couple of documents regarding lubrication.  good advice already received nothing to add.

BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches (1).pdf Moebius Oil_Chart.pdf

[Watcherwoman]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Yes, don't fill the cups- but you can oil them with the caps assembled by oiling the cup, then feeding the oil through with a fine pin, it will pull in and suck against the cap jewel by capillarity. Check that you have oil on the cap 1/2 to 2/3 of its surface. This is standard technique for non-shock (screwed together) jewel assemblies.

 

Normally the hole jewel is convex when used with a cap jewel, this keeps the oil centered. Cheaper watches with caps will often have flat hole jewels working with flat caps- and the oil tends to run away. Bulova was high quality- the cap is convex where it faces the hole jewel; this does the same as a convex hole jewel.

Ok so question…where in the world do I find a pin or wire fine enough for this job?

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, Watcherwoman said:

Ok so question…where in the world do I find a pin or wire fine enough for this job?

As you're just starting out your unlikely to have the proper supplies? A old balance staff works. Or in my case I have an assortment of miscellaneous staffs so I just found one of the suitable size and I use that or the item in the picture depends on the watch.

Description is never quite right. This is basically the tip that goes on a handle but I gave up using the handle because end up bumping the wire in the something in a break so it's easier just to have the little piece to hold onto as the oil cups I have our individual and it has a rim I just place it in the realm of the oil cup so I know where they are.

Then the pictures really nice and big because this thing is only about 2 1/2 mm long it's not very big it's really tiny. But it does work really well for getting the oil in.

[HectorLooi]

9 minutes ago, Watcherwoman said:

Ok so question…where in the world do I find a pin or wire fine enough for this job?

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/oilers-3-in-1-incabloc-specialist

You could get one of these. 

I just took an old broken oiler and sharpened the tip until it was fine enough.

The jewels that you are oiling are from the gear train and the pivots are not as fine as balance wheel pivots. So the jewel holes should be bigger. Probably a sewing needle would be able to do the job.

[Watcherwoman]

41 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

As you're just starting out your unlikely to have the proper supplies? A old balance staff works. Or in my case I have an assortment of miscellaneous staffs so I just found one of the suitable size and I use that or the item in the picture depends on the watch.

Description is never quite right. This is basically the tip that goes on a handle but I gave up using the handle because end up bumping the wire in the something in a break so it's easier just to have the little piece to hold onto as the oil cups I have our individual and it has a rim I just place it in the realm of the oil cup so I know where they are.

Then the pictures really nice and big because this thing is only about 2 1/2 mm long it's not very big it's really tiny. But it does work really well for getting the oil in.

Just bought one! Thanks!

[nickelsilver]

I have (and have had, and re-bought) the Incabloc oil pusher listed above, and it's great. But I had a period of years doing work on very small high end vintage watches for a manufacturer where the balance jewels were simply too small for it to fit, so I got in the habit of using hairspring pins that were fine enough. If you're not working on sub 6 ligne LeCoultre or Piaget calibers the Incabloc tool will serve you well.

 

As an aside, for me, the only proper way to oil Incablocs is to oil the cap, and set the setting on top. I epilame the caps first, helps a lot. So I never really figured out why these pushers (points, shafts, whatever) were made a marketed. But they are definitely useful for normal non-shock oil pushing.

[jdm]

8 hours ago, Watcherwoman said:

Where in the world do I find a pin or wire fine enough for this job?

Stripping electrical wires until you find a suitable one. I was thinking that the strands were all of a same diameter generically, or of a same diameter in a given wire. But a wire manufacturer explained me that isn't so.

[Kalanag]

I found that the copper wires of small solenoids are small enough to do the job (about 0,1mm). Unfortunately they are very soft and require me to use the microscope to push exactly into the hole.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Kalanag

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 hours ago, Watcherwoman said:

They are definitely cap stones as they have no oil cup. Just a convex cover with the flat underside. Watch just got out of the cleaner, so I’ll take more pics. 

Here are some more photos. Hopefully this shows what I mean. The only cups present are on the underside of the bridge when it is flipped over. The top of the bridge shows these jewels with a flat surface. You then screw on the capstone, which I just realized is convex on BOTH sides, no flat side as I previously thought.  

 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

35 minutes ago, jdm said:

I was thinking that the strands were all of a same diameter generically, or of a same diameter in a given wire.

As we know stranded cable is flexible. But if you go to a more flexible cable then the wire size is smaller. Like test probe wire that's meant to be flexed all the time is going to be a small diameter. Audio cables are usually small headphone cables can be really small. The shielding on audio stuff will usually be small.

Although another source found in watches would be analog quartz watch coil that's a nice small diameter wire. Although never thought about this before I wonder if you can go to small?

 

[HectorLooi]

We use a very fine steel wire for cleaning the spray orifices of our dental drills. Always wondered where to get those wire until I found out recently. They were acupuncture needles! The thinnest ones are 0.16mm. That is about the diameter of the pivots.

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

We use a very fine steel wire for cleaning the spray orifices of our dental drills. Always wondered where to get those wire until I found out recently. They were acupuncture needles! The thinnest ones are 0.16mm. That is about the diameter of the pivots.

Or these 

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Or these 

I can see myself dressing these into fine oilers. Nice one matey