French Regulator Clock--a new project

[LittleWatchShop]

OK, just feeling love for @clockboy...wanted to throw him a tasty morsel!!

This came to me along with all those watches I have been posting about--they are all finished.  Now I have to fix the clocks--this is first up.  I have worked on one of these before...about 50 years ago.  So...I am rusty.  Have already taken lots of pictures so that I can find my way home.

There is one issue up front that I wanted to get on the forum.  One of the barrels has been repaired and I am not too keen on it.  Maybe I should let it go.  Dunno...what is are the thoughts of the clock masters??

Other than the barrel issue, I plan to do a full disassembly and clean it using my ultrasonic and L&R clock cleaning solution.

Any thoughts on the general approach would be appreciated.

 

[watchweasol]

Hi  some time or other some one repaired the barrel teeth (badly). The french clock springs are quite strong and if left I can see that repair failing and causing more damage. So best either repair it properly and it will be ok or replace rhe barrel.  Its a nice clock and The mougin movement is a sound  and they clean up a treat. Well worth the effort.   French clocks and parts appear on ebay quite often. I have a little collecyion of bits myself.

[LittleWatchShop]

57 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  some time or other some one repaired the barrel teeth (badly). The french clock springs are quite strong and if left I can see that repair failing and causing more damage. So best either repair it properly and it will be ok or replace rhe barrel.  Its a nice clock and The mougin movement is a sound  and they clean up a treat. Well worth the effort.   French clocks and parts appear on ebay quite often. I have a little collecyion of bits myself.

Here are the barrels after removing.  The other barrel has some bent teeth as well.  Should I attempt to bend them back?

So I should just monitor Ebay for a while and maybe pick up some barrels, eh?  I will try my google fu and see if I can find somebody who collects and sells this stuff.

[LittleWatchShop]

[watchweasol]

Hi  Sometimes you can straighten the teeth, but you have three/four there, probably damaged when the other barrel broke.  the only problem with straightening is getting the profile right and then polishing the teeth, be very careful and inspect for cracks once done. I have straighted them before and been ok. the other barrel probaby best to replace.  If you get stuck for a barrel let me know and I see what I have. Keep clocking ebay   good luck

[LittleWatchShop]

My search terms on ebay are "french regulator," "french crystal regulator" & "barrel" for either of those.  Any guidance on better search terms?

[oldhippy]

This type is also called a French four glass clock. The barrels are normally soldered together. To make a first class repair I would cut new teeth for both barrels. Straightening is a big gamble as they have been weekend and with the force of those springs they could bend or shear off causing considerable damage.  I see it has what is quite common with these clocks a Mercury pendulum. Everything that is brass should be polished and all screws blued. 

Do not clean any brass parts in an ultrasonic clean by hand. Do you intend to polish the brass case if so my advise is after cleaning and polishing it by hand lacquer it as this will stop it from tarnishing.   

[LittleWatchShop]

34 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Do not clean any brass parts in an ultrasonic clean by hand.

The horse left the barn on this one.  Can't go back.  Why the issue with cleaning brass in the ultrasonic?  Everything came out looking quite good but I did some additional polishing with a jewelry cloth and that improved even more.

Regarding straightening teeth...yes, a valid point...I will not attempt.

I do not have the equipment to cut new teeth...though I have dreamed of doing this!!

[rodabod]

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

The horse left the barn on this one.  Can't go back.  Why the issue with cleaning brass in the ultrasonic?  Everything came out looking quite good but I did some additional polishing with a jewelry cloth and that improved even more.

Regarding straightening teeth...yes, a valid point...I will not attempt.

I do not have the equipment to cut new teeth...though I have dreamed of doing this!!

There is a strong argument for avoiding ultrasonic cleaning and ammoniated solutions for older work, but in particular, older British work where the brass is hand-hammered. Hammering hardened the brass and naturally introduces fractures which are generally stable, but can deteriorate with ultrasonic cleaning action and ammonia. 
 

In my opinion, a French clock of that age should be fine in an ultrasonic cleaner and I’d possibly use lightly ammoniated solution without worrying too much. If it was an English clock from the early 1700’s then eyebrows would certainly be raised. Also, those French clocks are not especially rare. 

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, rodabod said:

There is a strong argument for avoiding ultrasonic cleaning and ammoniated solutions for older work, but in particular, older British work where the brass is hand-hammered. Hammering hardened the brass and naturally introduces fractures which are generally stable, but can deteriorate with ultrasonic cleaning action and ammonia. 
 

In my opinion, a French clock of that age should be fine in an ultrasonic cleaner and I’d possibly use lightly ammoniated solution without worrying too much. If it was an English clock from the early 1700’s then eyebrows would certainly be raised. Also, those French clocks are not especially rare. 

Why I love this forum...learn something new every day!  I admit that the majority of the clocks I repaired for my Dad 50+ years ago were American made.  I don't think I ever saw anything as old as you reference. 

[clockboy]

The main issue is the barrels that have had poor repairs. There are posts and a vid (see below)on the net showing how this task is done. I can not comment on how easy or difficult it is as I have never attempted it. I have straightened bent teeth with no issues and for those in the UK Mr Fletcher actually shows how he does it in one of the “ repair shop” episodes. 

 

[oldhippy]

When I was an apprentice I had to repair and replace teeth this way. The hardest part is getting the distance between teeth correct and height. 

If you cannot cut new teeth I would suggest you find someone that can. I still prefer cleaning and polishing brass clocks the old tried and tested way then drying them in sawdust, and finely french chalk brushed.   

I don't think I would like to tell the customer that cleaning their lovely clocks I just put the parts in an ultrasonic bath. I have seen too much damage too clocks caused by bad cleaning and repairs.  

[rodabod]

I think if it were mine then I’d try to source some scrap Mougin movements. Or similar French movements in the hope that the barrel could be adapted to fit the new barrel arbor if the barrel circumference were the same. 

[LittleWatchShop]

Thanks for all of the input.  Regarding the barrels, I have assembled the clock as is for now.  The pendulum came to me broken (both vials of mercury) and needs to be refitted with faux mercury vials.  I will check with the owner to see how far they want me to go with this clock.

In the mean time, I need to replace this pin in the dial.  It was broken  I assume that it was originally tapered and burnished in at the dial side.  Maybe it was straight.  At any rate, it should be replaced.  Which direction should I punch it out?

BTW, this clock came to me by way of a neighbor who was casing about for old dusty timepieces in closets to keep me busy (ha!  Like I need something to keep me busy).  I suspect that this piece was in the attic or some nondescript place.  I will return it in far better shape than it came to me.

Edited January 22, 2022 by LittleWatchShop

[oldhippy]

Always be extremely careful when it comes to dials, you cannot afford to damage them in any way no matter what they are made of. Looks as if it broke away when someone tried to pin it. So tap it out from the back to the front, as you can see at the front it has been flattened, so back to front and tap carefully. 

 

 Mercury glass tubes you can get here. They come empty, who the hell you could get to fill them heaven knows. I don't think anyone wants to play with that stuff.

http://www.m-p.co.uk/muk/parts/pendulums-french.htm

[LittleWatchShop]

I found a place here in Texas that can make the barrels from raw material!

[rodabod]

3 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Thanks for all of the input.  Regarding the barrels, I have assembled the clock as is for now.  The pendulum came to me broken (both vials of mercury) and needs to be refitted with faux mercury vials.  I will check with the owner to see how far they want me to go with this clock.

In the mean time, I need to replace this pin in the dial.  It was broken  I assume that it was originally tapered and burnished in at the dial side.  Maybe it was straight.  At any rate, it should be replaced.  Which direction should I punch it out?

BTW, this clock came to me by way of a neighbor who was casing about for old dusty timepieces in closets to keep me busy (ha!  Like I need something to keep me busy).  I suspect that this piece was in the attic or some nondescript place.  I will return it in far better shape than it came to me.

Is the riveted pin hidden by the bezel which surrounds the dial?

If so, I’d be tempted to either re-rivet it by punching it to spread it, or apply - small amount of JB-Weld or 2 part epoxy to secure at the rear of the dial by forming a shallow ring around the pin. 

[LittleWatchShop]

Out of an abundance of caution, I decided to drill and pin the short stud.

Then it made sense to do the same for the other stud...until the drill broke inside the hole...ugh!!

So plan B was to make a clamp from a razor blade.

These approaches minimized any possibility of damage to the dial.

Whomever serviced this in the past, simply bent the pins,  I noticed that both pins had holes drilled for pins (at a higher point further from the dial.  Must have been spacers before...dunno.  So, out of laziness, I guess, the person just bent the pins.  Well, with a hole already drilled...this compromised the bending!!

[oldhippy]

A nice job done. 

[LittleWatchShop]

I discovered that the lift lever that rachets up the chime count lever catches on the lever for a couple of different hour positions.  My analysis is that it needs to be longer.  See my sketch.  The red element needs to be longer.  What is on the clock now does not appear to be original.

I am hoping to find an image of what an original one looked like.  Also should it be brass or steel?

ALSO!!  What are these parts called...I am a little rusty on terminology.

[HectorLooi]

8 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Mercury glass tubes you can get here. They come empty, who the hell you could get to fill them heaven knows. I don't think anyone wants to play with that stuff.

You could try your dentist. Especially old ones.

I recently gave 2 bottles of it to my supplier as I haven't used them in over twenty years. He says that he still has customers using that stuff.

[LittleWatchShop]

8 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

You could try your dentist. Especially old ones.

I recently gave 2 bottles of it to my supplier as I haven't used them in over twenty years. He says that he still has customers using that stuff.

Curious...how did you prepare the filling with the mercury?  Did you mix it with a hardener/epoxy or something?

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Curious...how did you prepare the filling with the mercury?  Did you mix it with a hardener/epoxy or something?

We mix it with a precise amount of a silver alloy so that when mixed with the mercury, it amalgamates completely leaving hardly any unreacted mercury behind.

Out in the Old West, your travelling medicine man ( snake oil peddler ) would fill teeth with amalgam made with mercury and filings from a silver dollar.

[HectorLooi]

About twenty years ago, out of concern for the environment and the effects of mercury on the health of my patients and on my own health, I phased out using amalgam in my practice.

But the dental industry is not the biggest mercury offenders. Just watch this video below:-

 

[LittleWatchShop]

LOL, one way to get by.