Mystery Watch - Opening the Case to see the Movement

[PWFDmedic]

Sorry for the remedial question, but I've exhausted my limited ideas.  I was given this by a client who hired me to clean out his attic and told me to keep whatever I found.  I found this, but thought it too valuable so I showed him, and he repeated I should keep it.  It's clearly spent most of its life in the box.  Runs and keeps good time.  No obvious markings or hallmarks other than what's shown in the photos.  Key wound and set (has the key).  Back opens with a press on the stem (latch shown).

I can't figure out how to reveal the movement (so I can determine the manufacturer).  The crystal is in a frame that is hinged at the bottom just like the rear cover.  When I press the latch, no wiggle or movement of the front that might give a hint that the same latch opens both.  No groove for a case knife.  Nothing obvious to me.  I don't want to pull or twist the stem unless that's the way to open it.

Any ideas?

[oldhippy]

The picture I want to see is one with the bezel open a nice clear one please. 

[watchweasol]

 Hi that looks like a nice watch  but as OH said we need picture of the open case.  The last one I did the back opens to reveal the movement and securing screws which when removed and the front bezel opened the movement comes out through the front.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

The picture I want to see is one with the bezel open a nice clear one please. 

Yes the picture we all want to see.

If you look at the edge of the case you will notice that you have two hinges one for the back and one for the front bezel. Usually buttons are only for opening things that you need accessibility to as the consumer. So like opening the backup to wind the watch. Or if it's in a hunting case which has a cover over the glass you would push the button to open that so you could see the time. No need for the customer to get into the watch there isn't any button for that.

7 hours ago, PWFDmedic said:

No groove for a case knife.  Nothing obvious to me. 

Use something really thin like a razor blade be really careful not the slicer fingers off or even cut yourself we don't like to see blood on our watches. On the opposite side of the hinge gently insert the razor blade in in the front bezel should come off. Usually and you can kinda see it in the picture Someplace were typically you would open the front. I'm sniffing out one even images and drawing a red line as to the most likely place. Just make sure that actually is a crack there

7 hours ago, PWFDmedic said:

No obvious markings or hallmarks other than what's shown in the photos.

The lack of hallmarks the finish of the metal the wording on the back all make me suspicious of?

4 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

The last one I did the back opens to reveal the movement and securing screws which when removed and the front bezel opened the movement comes out through the front.

This is also a problem? Look very carefully at the back typically on English watches their sealed it goes through the front which would be revealed when the bezel's open will know the answers if you give us a picture. But this is not an English watch there is a tiny possibility that the back comes off you would more than likely need the razor blade again but let's try for the front side first because there is a hinge so we know that it does open.

[Michael1962]

That looks like a really pretty watch. Even more wonderful is that it was free.

[oldhippy]

I would say it's not English we do not spell GARANTI that way. 

[JohnR725]

2 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I would say it's not English we do not spell GARANTI that way.

I think it once to be something that it's not. Definitely not English probably Swiss although the words don't look Swiss but probably a Swiss bar movement. On the other hand we could be in for a surprise we won't know until it's opened.

[PWFDmedic]

5 hours ago, oldhippy said:

The picture I want to see is one with the bezel open a nice clear one please. 

Ahah!  That's the problem that I didn't explain clearly and didn't use the right terminology.  I'm trying to safely open the bezel without prying or scratching anything, and I'm wondering if I missed anything or if prying it open is the right thing to do.  Thanks for your response.

 

Tonight I will try the razor blade and see if I can get that photo.  This is a wonderful message board with so many helpful people.  I'm hooked!

Edited December 14, 2021 by PWFDmedic

[oldhippy]

It is hinged so a case knife should open it. 

[watchweasol]

We wait on tender hhoks for the big reveal !!!

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, PWFDmedic said:

Ahah!  That's the problem that I didn't explain clearly and didn't use the right terminology.  I'm trying to safely open the bezel without prying or scratching anything, and I'm wondering if I missed anything or if prying it open is the right thing to do. 

Look at the bottom of your case look at both hinges. Look at the one that opens pay attention to the seam. Now look at the bezel you should build the figure out where the seam is. Thank you up the top and look carefully you probably see like where showing the image somebody is already pried there before. Or it might be on the other side but usually it's there. With the razor blade don't pry just insert into the crack which should open up.

Somebody wouldn't of gone to all the trouble to put a hinge on if it doesn't open. Then there is no need for a button or any reason for normal person to open that because it sets on the backside. But still they took a lot of time and effort to make a nice hinge. Which should reveal something interesting once you get it opened up.

Then there's nothing wrong with proceeding with caution

[oldhippy]

Have you tried pressing that button at the top to see if the bezel opens. 

[KarlvonKoln]

Following.  I want to see how this turns out.

Just my own suggestion, but I think you may want to hold the button in at the same time that you're using a case knife to open the bezel (if possible).  If there is a latch in there, you don't want to ruin the bezel's lip by prying it out over the latch.

[PWFDmedic]

Thanks everyone for your helpful comments.  Once it appeared that I wasn't missing some easier option, and also that I wasn't about to do something silly and destructive, I did use a razor blade to pry open the bezel as suggested.  The bezel popped open (not easily), and now I have revealed three screws for (I assume) removing the movement.  My smallest screwdriver is .08, so I have ordered a 0.6 and as soon as it gets here, I'll continue my quest to identify this movement.

Sorry it took so long to get back to everyone.  My day job has been keeping me pretty busy.

Photo attached of the now-open bezel.  Cheers and happy new year to everyone.

[KarlvonKoln]

I may be proved wrong later (and it wouldn't be the first time; these watches can sometimes surprise us) but I have a feeling that those tiny little screws may have more to do with holding the case spring in (that which works the back cover latch) than they do with holding in the movement. These little screws are outside the diameter of the dial.  If the movement is made to be removed through the front, it must exit through that hole below the dial.  I haven't yet encountered a method or mechanism which would retain the movement at the perimeter  by way of such tiny screws as those, except maybe some form of swing-out case.  But this one is not that kind.  
As I said, I may be wrong, but something keeps telling me that inner cuvette should open and inside should be some case screws holding your movement in.  The cuvette may be no less stubborn to open than all the rest of your case; I see a theme there.  Goodness knows I have a favorite watch with a case so little-used, so much like new, and so very tight fitting, that opening it is a chore I no longer undertake.  It is very well-regulated and keeping excellent time and opening that beast can wait another five years.  Some cases can be like that.
Keep us posted with what you encounter.  This watch is teaching us things.

Edited December 25, 2021 by KarlvonKoln

[PWFDmedic]

2 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

As I said, I may be wrong, but something keeps telling me that inner cuvette should open and inside should be some case screws holding your movement in.  The cuvette may be no less stubborn to open than all the rest of your case; I see a theme there.

We have a winner!  I never considered this possibility, and didn't look carefully, but with the loupe in I could see the notch for the case opening and here's the movement!

No obvious marks to indicate the manufacturer.  I believe the triangle with the reverse-r and r in it is the metal hallmark, not the manufacturer, but I've been wrong about so many things, wouldn't rule that out here too.  The only other clue I see is on regulator the marks for fast and slow are an "R" and "A" which I suppose might mean it is French, no?

Engraving inside the cuvette indicate it's been serviced at least twice.

 

[KarlvonKoln]

Well, there you have it!  And it certainly looks like a Swiss bar movement to me.  There is your case screw just to the right of the balance, down below a little bit.  There will be a retaining pin in the opposite side of the movement to aid in keeping it in the case.  So you will need to lift it out at an angle, from the case screw's side.

And we have a trademark to look up.  A veteran on this forum may look at it and tell us the maker soon but, until then, I will research it.  I feel I should know it; I've seen it before I'm sure.

[PWFDmedic]

3 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

And we have a trademark to look up.  A veteran on this forum may look at it and tell us the maker soon but, until then, I will research it.  I feel I should know it; I've seen it before I'm sure.

Does it look like Revue Thommen to you?  Swiss, which would also explain the French letters.

[KarlvonKoln]

5 minutes ago, PWFDmedic said:

Does it look like Revue Thommen to you?  Swiss, which would also explain the French letters.

Could be Revue.  That brand made some cylinder escapement watches.  I will see how far back that brand was founded.  The style of the case and it being key wind/key set point to mid-1800s.

[Marc]

From Mikrolisk.

R. Albert Rielé - Kleinuhren, Taschenuhren; La Chaux-de-Fonds, Schweiz; registriert am 29.9.1881

Julien Rielé - Kleinuhren, Uhrenteile, Uhrwerke, Gehäuse, Zifferblätter; Genève-Eaux-Vives, Schweiz; registriert am 4.4.1903; Marke übertragen von R.-Albert Rielé

[watchweasol]

Thats a nice looking watch  worth waiting for the case opening  

[KarlvonKoln]

5 hours ago, Marc said:

R. Albert Rielé - Kleinuhren, Taschenuhren; La Chaux-de-Fonds, Schweiz; registriert am 29.9.1881

Thanks go out to Marc!  Danke Sehr!  The trademark is that of R. Albert Rielé.  I found this picture when I searched their website (they are still going strong as a Swiss brand):

https://albertriele.ch/img/history/5-m.jpg

It shows the exact trademark as it appears in PWFDmedic's watch. It documents registration of that trademark in 1881. And here is the website from where that was obtained:

https://albertriele.ch/en/p/brand

Nice catch Marc!

[PWFDmedic]

You people are amazing!  Thanks for solving this mystery!