Balance Spring - future replacement

[rossjackson01]

Hello.

I'm a new convert to watch repair. This is just a request for information as I do not have the requisite skill to achieve. Probably 2 years down the line. But it would be nice to know.

I have an old fob watch that belong to my brides grandfather. Never worked. I have opened it up and found that the balance spring has become dislodge. Photographs attached.

My questions. ??

1. Can the balance spring be replace.

2. Can purchase another balance wheel spring. Remove the old and replace with the new.

3. Does the spring look repairable, can it straightened.

 

It is in the far future that I would attempt such a repair. 

Really enjoying learning

Regards

Ross.

 

[Nucejoe]

You should detach the balance complete ( balance wheel and hairspring mounted on it)  from the cock, to see if the inner circles of the coil are alright( show us a close up of the coil) ,   the outermost circle takes much less work to sort out.

Even though its a fixed stud holder, pull the coil to sort it out, which includes shaping a terminal curve, sorting this coil on tac wont be easy.  You will then be concerned with adjusting  the impulse jewel  in-beat when putting the coil back on the balance wheel. 

You are highly likely to end up with some beat error which you can try reducing by trial and error.  

Nickelsilver showed a tool thats real handy for adjusting beat he also said zeroing the error without the said tool is doable, beyond me though. 

Plenty of help here willing to work with you through out the whole process. 

Unless a dedicated hairspring is made for this caliber and you can get your hands on one, you would need to vibrate a replacement spring thats compatible with the wheel at hand. 

Regs

 

[watchweasol]

Hi Ross   yes its doable but as Joe said there is a lot to think about even before attempting such a job, first you need to learn about balance/hairsprings and their formation the types of metals used as some are brittle (usually old blue springs) and the newer ones berillium  are a bit better. you will also need to know the techniques involved with straightening springs such as yours, and a great deal of practice. watch Marks videos on the subject and read the books on the subject and be prepared to learn a lot, Keep the watch in its box untill you feel confident then go for it.  You have now got a target to aim for.    all the best and good luck.

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

My questions. ??

1. Can the balance spring be replace.

2. Can purchase another balance wheel spring. Remove the old and replace with the new.

3. Does the spring look repairable, can it straightened.

First the easy questions the questions? Can the balance spring be replaced no. Yes but it's not going to happen so the answer is no. Can you purchase another balance wheel and swap hairsprings definitely not they come together typically. We would have to identify the movement and see if anyone carries old stock parts unlikely for balance complete the third question is more interesting?

We need better pictures and a better description? Common practice back then was that they hairspring will stick out beyond Where it is pinned. If the protruding part isn't touching anything it's probably just  fine. Then as far as a terminal curve goes a lot of these watches never had A terminal curve. We really need better pictures but it looks like there's not even space for terminal curve. Basically it's really important to ascertain the situation understand exactly what you're looking at for this watch before attempting to fix things otherwise you going to have to fix whatever you thought you were fixing.

 

 

 

[jdm]

 

17 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

I have opened it up and found that the balance spring has become dislodge.

In my opinion that hairspring has been distorted by someone poking with the watch, which is (and was) actually very common. The reason of the watch not running could have been something else, and from that the supplementary damage by a total incompetent trying to "repair" it  You can take it apart and check if, for example, if  the mainspring or a balance pivot is broken. 

[Nucejoe]

55 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 understand exactly what you're looking at for this watch before attempting to fix things otherwise you going to have to fix whatever you thought you were fixing.

Ha ha ,  true and real funny. 

[rossjackson01]

Thank you for the replies. I thought, from ebay adverts that offer many balance springs, that a balance spring could be swapped. How wrong I was. 

My learning curve is on the flat, and as I said, it may be two years or more before I get to that standard. I do appreciate your replies.

About photographs. I don't see a name or any markings to acknowledge a maker. As I get more into the strip down I may notice something. I will keep you posted.

Regards

Ross

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

About photographs. I don't see a name or any markings to acknowledge a maker. As I get more into the strip down I may notice something. I will keep you posted.

I wouldn't rush but someday when you get the dial off give us a decent photograph of that. Also we need to diameter of the movement on the dial side we might bill identify the watch from the setting components. Then it for lucky the maker might have left their marking on that side. Usually it's under the balance bridge occasionally it's hiding in other places. Older watches a lot of times it's on the dial side.

[rossjackson01]

Thinking about working on the pocket watch. Anyone any idea as the the movement name.

Regards

Ross

[Klassiker]

Do what John asked and remove the movement from the case, the hands and dial from the movement, and post a good picture of the movement, dial-side. Measure the diameter.

The hairspring looks find to me.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Klassiker

[Nucejoe]

 I agree with klassiker, even if broken the remainder of the hairspring looks long enough to oscilate to the beat it should specially that its screw balance. The outer coil is easy to streighten. 

Your android should give us a decent close up of the coil. 

Even if not successful and it will be another spring you haven't lost anything, but we will learn quite a lot as you try fixing this. 

Regards

[rossjackson01]

OK. Been afraid to remove the balance. Need to man up.

Ross

[Klassiker]

Gently does it. Work on a large clean area, so if you drop anything, it doesn't fall far. Have your storage compartments open and ready nearby. Undo the screw most of the way, but don' t remove it just yet. Lever the cock off its locating pins. Now you can remove the screw completely. Use your tweezers to pick up the cock. Make sure the tips have a good grip on flat surfaces. Top and bottom is more secure than on the edges. The coil will stretch, but the balance should lift out cleanly. If it sticks or catches on anything, don' t tug. Just rest the cock back on its seat, and gently lift the balance rim until the pivot comes out of the jewel, and the roller jewel is away from the fork. Now you can lift the cock again, and the balance should follow. Put the assembly down gently on a flat clean surface. Have a breather and give yourself a pat on the back.

Ideally, you should now flip the whole balance assembly over and seat the pivot into the jewel before storing it. GENTLY pinch the rim of the wheel together with the cock and turn everything over.

Keep things low over the work surface and use good light and magnification, and you'll be fine!

[rossjackson01]

OK. Done as informed. I have removed the balance complete. There are no makers marks anywhere to be seen. The photographs show the state of the balance. I don't know how to mend (repair) the hair spring. I will remove the dial later and see if there are any makers marks on the other side of the movement. Watch looks in reasonable condition otherwise. 

Ross

[Klassiker]

I still don't see a problem with the hairspring. Can you post a picture of the dial-side?

[JohnR725]

10 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

I still don't see a problem with the hairspring. Can you post a picture of the dial-side?

That's because there is no problem I wish all of my hairsprings looked as good as this.

I have a question for everybody what is the problem if it's not the hairspring?

Have you figured out the question yet the problem is faulty diagnostic skills much farther down I'm going to explain the problems of that but for right now let's look at the hairspring problem? It's a big problem if you have faulty diagnostic skills otherwise it's not a problem.

To understand the hairspring crisis I snipped out an image. Notice I circled two separate things horrible looking hairspring and shiny stud screw? In case you can't see the shiny steel studs screw like you typically find on watches it's because it's not there never had one which is typical of watches of this type. The hairspring stud is friction into the bridge it can usually be pushed out with some force. Otherwise the easiest way to deal with this is just removing the pin and sliding the hairspring out. For manufacturing purposes which works out good for us the hairspring always sticks out beyond the Stud. The part that sticking out just has to stay out a way of everything else that can't be bumping into the hairspring or balance wheel it doesn't have to look pretty it just has to be there. If you go to the top look at the original pictures that's what were seeing is the offending hairspring sticking out doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing it's just fine.

 

23 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

I don't know how to mend (repair) the hair spring. I will remove the dial later and see if there are any makers marks on the other side of the movement. Watch looks in reasonable condition otherwise. 

A question for Ross does the watch have any sentimental value for you or your family? If the answer is yes wrap the watch up continue reading the discussion and don't touch it again for some time you're not ready for it. If the answer is no you don't care about this watch and then will continue but were really continue anyway is just a suggestion of it be better if you were working on this watch right now.

On 12/4/2021 at 3:54 AM, rossjackson01 said:

My questions. ??

1. Can the balance spring be replace.

2. Can purchase another balance wheel spring. Remove the old and replace with the new.

3. Does the spring look repairable, can it straightened.

 

Faulty diagnostics leads to faulty questions. On the other hand we've answered all the questions you really don't want to replace they hairspring it looks nice and replacing would be a nightmare. Second question you're not going to get another balance wheel I'm a talk about spare parts farther below why you're not. Third question yes it can be fixed but not by you not right now and I'll also explained that down below.

Sometimes I think of learning watch repair is similar to learning to become a doctor? Both require similar things like knowledge skills and a heck of a lot of practice. Both have similarity in that patients are like watches their all the little different they have similarities but they have a lot of differences.

Unfortunately the biggest difference is doctors typically don't work on living patients until a half enough skills. Then they have a lot of supervision. It's very bad if you're patient dies could be a heck of a big lawsuit. What's the worst that happens if you break the family heirloom watch? Although sometimes painful lessons are what is needed to perhaps go down a better path.

Practicing for watch repair is not to practice on live watches. Practice on watches they don't care about that you have zero intention of fixing. Practice until you can put the watch together without breaking the pivots on. Hopefully your practice watches have balance wheels with hairsprings. Look at your hairspring see what a good hairspring is supposed to look like that's why purchasing a brand-new Chinese 6497 clone is nice. Look at how they hairspring is opening and closing and see how nice it looks. Then look at your practice watches do they look similar? In practice bending your hair Springs bended at the stud how does it look try to bend it back the only way to get good with hairspring and watches is to practice lots of practice. Then don't worry no one ever learns watch repair were all still practicing.

Now back to movement identification you're probably not going to find an identification but here's how we would do it if there is no name anywhere to be found? You can remove the dial some times there is a makers Mark on the older watches its typically on this side. But even if you figure out who makes it doesn't mean you're going to get components at all.

The other reason for taking a dial off there's another way to identify the watch? We need the diameter the movement always measured from the dial side because what were going to look up is categorized by the movement size.

I've heard it referred to as the fingerprint system it might have an official name I don't know what it is. Up until relatively modern times the setting components in a watch for all unique. Her books that you to look at and see the pictures of the setting components you can attempt to find pictures of your components to figure out which watch you have. But most of the books are relatively moderate Mike may be the 60s and I got have won the 50s I don't know if I've really seen anything before that so if you're looking at more vintage you're probably not going get an identification. Even the older book I have a lot of times ill just have a name with no other references at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rossjackson01]

53 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

A question for Ross does the watch have any sentimental value for you or your family? If the answer is yes wrap the watch up continue reading the discussion and don't touch it again for some time you're not ready for it. If the answer is no you don't care about this watch and then will continue but were really continue anyway is just a suggestion of it be better if you were working on this watch right now.

Thoroughly agree. Yes is the answer to the question. Sentimental value. I am too new to the hobby to be able to appreciate the skill required. It was wishful thinking. I will put it back together and return as advised. 

No body told me learning about watches would be so addictive.

Thank you

Regards

Ross

[rossjackson01]

3 hours ago, Klassiker said:

I still don't see a problem with the hairspring. Can you post a picture of the dial-side?

Thank you for the request. However as suggested I will stop the disassemble and come back to the repair when I have more experience. Sorry to disappoint.

Regards

Ross

[Nucejoe]

You have a chance now to do the fork test. 

[rossjackson01]

10 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

You have a chance now to do the fork test. 

I've got to ask. ???? The answer is probably so simple. But I am, so it isn't

Ross.

[HectorLooi]

I think that there is too much excess spring sticking out beyond the stud and touching the rim of the balance. Try straightening the excess get it away from the balance wheel.

I think the hairspring might have been replaced before as no watchmaker would leave so much spring sticking out. So I'm not sure if the hairspring has been vibrated for this balance wheel.

As Ross says, and what my practice philosophy is.... Leave it till your skills catch up with the problem.

[Klassiker]

6 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Sorry to disappoint

I'm not disappointed. Under the circumstances, it is the right decision. I understood it was important to you to find out more about your watch. As John says, we can only answer the questions you ask.

You can store the watch safely with the balance removed, if you want to. Put the balance in it's own compartment, with a bit of tissue paper to hold it steady. If you want to reinstall it, make absolutely certainly that the pivots are in their holes before tightening the screw. After each quarter-turn on the screw, check the balance turns freely without wobbling. If it jams up at any point, back off and check again. If at any time you are unsure, stop and come back to us.

[rossjackson01]

Stored away for future repair.

Regards

Ross