Balance wheel wobble: possible hairspring out of flat?

[Nucejoe]

40 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

 

When I hadn't flattened the tabs on the novodiac shock spring, I did see the end jewels vibrating in the shock block, and the balance wheel wobbling by an extreme amount. After flattening the tabs on the shock spring, the end jewels no longer moved/vibrated visually, but the balance wheel still wobbled slightly. I tried pressing very lightly down on the end jewels with tweezers, but the wobbling of the balance wheel persisted; perhaps the wobbling is due to the end jewels being loose on the opposite shock block, since I can't press down on both end jewels simultaneously.

 After a pre-clean, I always put the balance- cock  back on the mainplate to have max access to the oscilator so to check& sort out possible issues . first item on check list is end shake, as you lift one side of the balance wheel you can observe how each jewels setting responds, pivots should not jump out jewel hole, oscilator oscilate  freely,  etc

Check list,

 Do jewels move?   Slight move is needed.

Are shock springs too loose? 

Are end & side  shake satisfacotry?

Does oscilator wobble?

Is hairspring flat?  Is the coil concentric?   Ismit rubbing on balance spokes or the cock?   Breaths evenly?   Check& sort out  the end cure, etc

I am sure your repairs will greately improve if you make a habbit of this proceedure, it seems to save me second tear downs. 

I check the end shake on all arbours including barrel arbour.

Regs Joe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ifibrin]

Dial down

[jdm]

18 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Dial down
IMG_3483.MOV

Posting movies is not supported, please read below. Also, if it's about showing a timegrapher pattern, normally a picture is enough.

 

 

[clockboy]

On 9/11/2021 at 8:54 AM, oldhippy said:

This will help you to understand about incabloc and how it works. Watch both.

 

 

 

 

The loss of a shock spring has been a regular post over the years on this forum. Especially with vintage watches absolute care  is required when releasing the spring as many are no longer available. 

[ifibrin]

39 minutes ago, clockboy said:

The loss of a shock spring has been a regular post over the years on this forum. Especially with vintage watches absolute care  is required when releasing the spring as many are no longer available. 

I was actually thinking about this issue: if the original shock spring from a vintage movement was damaged, would it be possible to swap with a different shock spring if it could be placed securely in the shock block? Obviously the actual shock protection wouldn’t be as good as the original...

Another thing is that other than the normal KIF, Incabloc, and novodiac shock springs still in production, where do the other funny shape shock springs found in “shock spring assortments” come from? Some of these assortments come with shock springs that can’t seem to be found individually.

[jdm]

18 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

 

Another thing is that other than the normal KIF, Incabloc, and novodiac shock springs still in production, where do the other funny shape shock springs found in “shock spring assortments” come from?

Are you referring to Cousins UK itme: 

[jdm]

33 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

where do the other funny shape shock springs found in “shock spring assortments” come from?

If you are referring to the Cousins UK item below:

Then the answer is in the description: 25 pieces for Chinese Watches
In other words: not applicable to swiss watches.

[clockboy]

Occasionally there are job lots of shock springs for sale on eBay & I have purchased a few over the years. Replacing a shock spring with a different style of spring is difficult to say the least but maybe an existing shock spring could be modified.There are just to many variables to give a definitive answer.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, ifibrin said:

 if the original shock spring from a vintage movement was damaged, would it be possible to swap with a different shock spring if it could be placed securely in the shock block? Obviously the actual shock protection wouldn’t be as good as the original...

I buy joblots of watches for parts/repair,  so I come across  many watches that got early retirement because somebody had tried to be over inventive.

Regs

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, ifibrin said:

I was actually thinking about this issue: if the original shock spring from a vintage movement was damaged, would it be possible to swap with a different shock spring if it could be placed securely in the shock block? Obviously the actual shock protection wouldn’t be as good as the original...

doesn't this entire discussion demonstrate that this would be problematic? In other words we went from the balance wheel wobbles because of something that it doesn't too it's probably wobbling because the balance jewel assemblies are not where there supposed to be because the spring is now defective. So randomly shoving in Springs that aren't quite right could result in somebody being confused over problems there having and not realize it was because the spring. Oh and you forgot about glue and your thought of gluing that spring back in.

4 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Another thing is that other than the normal KIF, Incabloc, and novodiac shock springs still in production, where do the other funny shape shock springs found in “shock spring assortments” come from? Some of these assortments come with shock springs that can’t seem to be found individually.

this is not a unique problem to those funny little gold springs what about everything else in the watch where they come from? How many parts of the watch you're working on can be interchanged with any other watch out there? What about all the watches made for the last 100+ years how many of those parts interchange with anything?

then there is the other problem companies that purchased movements put their own number on it their name and at one time maybe even sold watch parts for their watch. Yes I know pure fantasy that watch companies at one time might've sold us watch parts. But in those fantasy times of the past it be conceivable you could have 10 identical balance wheels for 10 different watches made by 10 different companies and they all have the same movement so in real life all the balances would interchange what a novel concept. This is where companies like bestfit come into play. They produced books where you can look up your watch and see what it would cross reference to then they had their own number system. Bestfit still exists but shall have to find a material house that supports it.

So for instance what about those nifty  shock springs I snipped out some things of the physical book. One page talks about the system and starts to show you parts to help you identify what you have that goes on for four separate pages. Then once you figure out what you have that goes on for about 20 more pages. Or even just run out and purchase the material system complete as soon as you find your time machine that you can go back in time to do that of course.

the good of a bestfit system even today is that it helps you to identify other watches that might use the same component and you could swap. Then if you're lucky enough to still have a material house that you can talk to you can ask them if they have the bestfit part you're looking for.

 

[ifibrin]

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

doesn't this entire discussion demonstrate that this would be problematic? In other words we went from the balance wheel wobbles because of something that it doesn't too it's probably wobbling because the balance jewel assemblies are not where there supposed to be because the spring is now defective. So randomly shoving in Springs that aren't quite right could result in somebody being confused over problems there having and not realize it was because the spring. Oh and you forgot about glue and your thought of gluing that spring back in.

this is not a unique problem to those funny little gold springs what about everything else in the watch where they come from? How many parts of the watch you're working on can be interchanged with any other watch out there? What about all the watches made for the last 100+ years how many of those parts interchange with anything?

then there is the other problem companies that purchased movements put their own number on it their name and at one time maybe even sold watch parts for their watch. Yes I know pure fantasy that watch companies at one time might've sold us watch parts. But in those fantasy times of the past it be conceivable you could have 10 identical balance wheels for 10 different watches made by 10 different companies and they all have the same movement so in real life all the balances would interchange what a novel concept. This is where companies like bestfit come into play. They produced books where you can look up your watch and see what it would cross reference to then they had their own number system. Bestfit still exists but shall have to find a material house that supports it.

So for instance what about those nifty  shock springs I snipped out some things of the physical book. One page talks about the system and starts to show you parts to help you identify what you have that goes on for four separate pages. Then once you figure out what you have that goes on for about 20 more pages. Or even just run out and purchase the material system complete as soon as you find your time machine that you can go back in time to do that of course.

the good of a bestfit system even today is that it helps you to identify other watches that might use the same component and you could swap. Then if you're lucky enough to still have a material house that you can talk to you can ask them if they have the bestfit part you're looking for.

 

That makes sense. I guess the best practice would be to purchase a scrap movement and hope the shock springs in them are still good!

[JohnR725]

53 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

That makes sense. I guess the best practice would be to purchase a scrap movement and hope the shock springs in them are still good!

I guess it depends upon how expensive the replacement movement is that you're going to buy from parts? Because the other option would be just to figure out which spring you need and by that. First link seemed expensive the second link seems better for price.

Then just in case you weren't aware there is a special tool like everything else in watch repair there's probably a special tool at unfortunately a special price which is never a good price.

Then I found the best fit number for you the factory number and all the watches that cross reference to that you do want to be careful in your purchasing watches in that they could have other type of shock protection system. So don't just assume that all watches on that list will only have these Springs values another type also.

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.25004/.f

https://www.ofrei.com/page1438.html

https://mccawcompany.com/product/novodiac-shock-spring-tool/

 

ETA 2824-2

400/2097

78004.231

NOVODIAC SPRING

 

[ifibrin]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I guess it depends upon how expensive the replacement movement is that you're going to buy from parts? Because the other option would be just to figure out which spring you need and by that. First link seemed expensive the second link seems better for price.

Then just in case you weren't aware there is a special tool like everything else in watch repair there's probably a special tool at unfortunately a special price which is never a good price.

Then I found the best fit number for you the factory number and all the watches that cross reference to that you do want to be careful in your purchasing watches in that they could have other type of shock protection system. So don't just assume that all watches on that list will only have these Springs values another type also.

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.25004/.f

https://www.ofrei.com/page1438.html

https://mccawcompany.com/product/novodiac-shock-spring-tool/

 

ETA 2824-2

400/2097

78004.231

NOVODIAC SPRING

 

For the 2824-2, the novodiac shock springs are still in production, and I know which ones to get, just that cousinsuk is only going to receive stock in Nov. I am waiting to order those.

I was referring to a hypothetical scenario in which the shock springs would no longer be in production, such as the very odd shaped ones such as protax. I think some vostoks also use a similar shape ones? A KIF trior, of the right size may be able to fit into the shock blocks, and I was wondering if this was considered ok to do if spare springs could not be found; you would have to evaluate if the end jewels were held securely by the make shift shock spring of course. It would be best of course to fit an authentic shock spring from the same/similar movement, but then that scrap movement would be without a shock spring!

[oldhippy]

I would alway check this sort of thing first before cleaning. Then the train, the barrel, then the keyless work. That is how my master taught me. 

Check list,

 Do jewels move?   Slight move is needed.

Are shock springs too loose? 

Are end & side  shake satisfacotry?

Does oscilator wobble?

Is hairspring flat?  Is the coil concentric?   Ismit rubbing on balance spokes or the cock?   Breaths evenly?   Check& sort out  the end cure, etc

I am sure your repairs will greately improve if you make a habbit of this proceedure, it seems to save me second tear downs. 

I check the end shake on all arbours including barrel arbour.