Beginners failures.

[Paul80]

Hi all.

As some will know I have only just started trying to fix watches and although I have had some success I have also had failures, but annoyingly it's not fail to fix but fixed watches failing a few weeks after getting them going, which is a bit deflating and disheartening.

I have been sticking to Seiko 7009 movements whilst I teach myself, the first one worked fine for a week, then suddenly stopped, when I opened the back to check what had gone wrong I found if I clicked the balance with a bit of pegwood, although the balance moved ok the pallet fork didn't, when I removed the balance I found the jewel had fallen out, I did find it but eventually lost it whilst trying to fit it back, so a new balance was obtained and touch wood it's still working fine.

The next two both stopped again after working fine for a couple of weeks, but this time it was not the same fault as above but they had both stopped winding, with both I found the head of the screw with the left hand thread had snapped off, now I know have fragile this screw is so was super careful when I did them up, and made sure I stopped as soon as the screw stopped moving without even a fraction more of a turn. In both cases it was easy to just unscrew the broken bit of thread and both were refited with replacement screws.

Anyone got any thoughts as to why two failed in quick succession, when I was aware they are easily damaged and was extra careful not to over tighten them.

I don't know the history of either watch so I suppose it's possible someone had in the past either turned it the wrong way to remove it or over tightened it in the past and weakened them.

Any other reason they might have failed.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, but these screws are getting hard to find and I have now used all my spares from stripped junk movements I bought in good faith on EvilBay.

Paul

 

 

[oldhippy]

Sounds like a bit of bad luck certainly with the screws. The pallets not so sure, this could be down to how you cleaned them. The best way is to put them into Ronsonol (lighter fluid) in a little jar that has a screw on lid, it evaporates very quick. Any pressure on the pallet stones can cause them to become weak from the fixing. Alway touch the pallet stones lightly with your tweezers to see if they move. A pallet stone can sit there for ages before it becomes dislodged. It's all part of the learning process. You are doing fine.  

[jdm]

56 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

The best way is to put them into Ronsonol (lighter fluid) in a little jar that has a screw on lid, it evaporates very quick.

As mentioned many times. Lighter fluid is not an horological product, but it  petroleum ether is and even more economical per quantity, is made to clean not to burn, does not contain additives to please the smoker like the lighter fluid does. Yes I know that lighter fluid has been used it for decades, maybe starting at one time when nothing better was available, but that doesn't change the facts above.

[WatchingOracle]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

As mentioned many times. Lighter fluid is not an horological product, but it  petroleum ether is and even more economical per quantity, is made to clean not to burn, does not contain additives to please the smoker like the lighter fluid does. Yes I know that lighter fluid has been used it for decades, maybe starting at one time when nothing better was available, but that doesn't change the facts above.

Hi. A little confused with your post. Are you saying it is better to use 'ether' rather than 'lighter fluid'?

[watchweasol]

Hi the first issue like the other two could be historical one having been cleaned with a fluid that has over time damaged or dissolved the shellac and after your subsequent attention it then fell out.  the other two I would put down to bad luck in as much they had probably been weakened prior to you working on the watches. I wouldn't put it down to failure but inexperience, you may find other screws break due to over zealous tightening. We are not dealing with M8 bolts here.  In years gone by a product called Beaucare (Trichloroethylene)I Think it was , Used for spot removal on cloth that was used by amateurs, deadly stuff.

Basically chalk it up as part of the learning process. You have done well to achieve what you have done to date.

[jdm]

8 minutes ago, WatchingOracle said:

Are you saying it is better to use 'ether' rather than 'lighter fluid'?

"Petroleum ether". Enter the search term with quotes in the search box top right to reveal the very many discussions about it. The main one about cleaning fluids is the one below.

 

[WatchingOracle]

Oh ok. Cheers!

[oldhippy]

If I was watch repairing to day I would still use Ronsonol. Tried and tested for years. We all have different ways. Some like One-Dip hairspring cleaner, I found it to be utterly useless.  

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

If I was watch repairing to day I would still use Ronsonol. Tried and tested for years. We all have different ways. Some like One-Dip hairspring cleaner, I found it to be utterly useless.  

I totally am on the OH side of the fence. I follow the old ways for repairing pocket watches. And I also use lighter fluid to clean hairsprings then examine under a microscope; and it works the best. One dip is useless as was said by OH. Tried it for a while and tossed it. I only have 10 years experience, but no complaints.

[jdm]

47 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

i follow the old ways for repairing pocket watches. And I also use lighter fluid to clean hairsprings then examine under a microscope

There below a example of the "old ways", from a 1908 book. Benzine is, in fact, petroleum ether.

[canthus]

Lighter fuel comes in different quality levels, usually related to price. Premium brands like Ronsonol are usually very good quality and leave no residues.  I found the best way to check is to clean a mirror and put a few drops on it.  Cover it to keep out airborne dust etc and leave it to evaporate.  Any residues will be clearly visible on the mirror.

[jdm]

59 minutes ago, canthus said:

Premium brands like Ronsonol are usually very good quality and leave no residues.

I have suggested many times to also look at the price per litre but only did the exercise this time, looking on Ebay UK.

Ronsonol Lighter Fluid 133ml - £7.31, that's £55 per  liter. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184283845328

Petroleoum Ether 250ml - £7.26, or £29 per liter. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164980508866

That is for the cheapest format of the two, I think if you get larger sizes the price convenience of the professional product becomes even bigger. I don't even smoke, so it's really an easy choice for me.

[nickelsilver]

It's common here to use benzine as a final rinse (or next to last rinse- some manufacturers spec 99%iso alcohol as last rinse), it's also petroleum ether. There's a handful of CAS numbers that qualify, haha. The actual spec here is rectified benzine 60/95, it leaves no visible residue but the demand from manufacturers to use a final alcohol rinse is to remove any residue.

 

When I needed fuel for my Coleman stove here, the chemist told me to use benzine. I explained that Coleman used a special mix of benzin-y naphtha-y stuff and he insisted, "same as you put in a Zippo!", which to me is naphtha... but I bought some pure naphtha from him a few months prior and it was so intensely stinky everyone around felt sick... He was really curious why I would want pure naphtha too! And it was to substitute for the Ronsonal I use with brushes to clean out clock pinions and such.

 

So for years now I've used benzine 60/95 in my Coleman stove, the benzine cup on my bench (which is for precleaning of very dirty parts and auto mainspring barrel wall etc.) and manky clock parts. I did use it as a rinse under advice from a manufacturer, but now only Greiner WF5 cleaner and S3 rinse and it's amazing. I personally would be nervous sending out parts cleaned only in benzine; if it's straight from the container and kept meticulously clean maybe...

[jdm]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

I personally would be nervous sending out parts cleaned only in benzine; if it's straight from the container and kept meticulously clean maybe...

That is the same thinking that my "aged" mentor Lino has. Back in the time he was still servicing wristwatches, he had observed that microscopic residue (we are really talking about invisible dust here) left on pivots and jewels would get a perfectly regulated fine watch to run slightly slow after few years. "It's not the oils that have congealed, but the dust that has compacted and is working like a brake! You look at it and it seems clean, but really is it? Only time can tell!"- he would lecture to fellow watchmakers. Maybe because of that discovery at least two Greiner cleaning machines appeared at his workshop, of the type which can also distill moonshine, as Master Nickelsilver taught us. He must have then relaxed his standards because these have ended sitting unused for a very long time, with still the original stash of bagged stearic acid and laboratory grade IPA.

[Paul80]

Thanks for all the replies to this.

As far as cleaning goes, I am aware that alcohol will soften the Shellac so don't use it on those parts, for my main cleaner I have been using Naphtha, which I understand is the same as lighter fuel.  I did obtain some Dry Cleaning fluid which is supposed to be the same as Bergeons One Dip (or whatever they call it now) but it seems very slow to evaporate so  not sure if it is the same or not, as I don't have any one dip to compare it to.

Still I am s!owly making progress learning about cleaning and rebuilding 7009 movements at least, will soon be time to try a different model ..

Paul

 

 

 

 

[WatchingOracle]

On 8/9/2021 at 7:33 PM, oldhippy said:

If I was watch repairing to day I would still use Ronsonol. Tried and tested for years. We all have different ways. Some like One-Dip hairspring cleaner, I found it to be utterly useless.  

I've not been able to source Ronsonol at all locally in Australia. Right now also there is a long backlog because of manufacturing delays and shipping from overseas with a lot of especially Elma cleaning agents too.

[jdm]

51 minutes ago, WatchingOracle said:

I've not been able to source Ronsonol at all locally in Australia.

The non-really-horological replacement for petroleoum ether in Australia is called Shellite and should be available at any hardware store or by mail order.

[WatchingOracle]

Oh yes. Diggers Shellite is an Australian made available brand I know of. I have no experience with it for the efficacy at cleaning watch parts however. Right now if as a "public service announcement" if there are any other Aussies here on the forum I know at the 'big hardware chain in every city' it appears as for purchase only "in-store in person at a standard checkout." Evidentially is is in their list of things they won't even allow contactless click-and-collect for or for even delivery with their courier services. Apparently their insurance won't cover those in case they explode in your car in the drive-through or if they explode in the couriers car. Found that out at the start of the last lockdown when my brother needed some. This makes it a pain if you are trying to get some and under lockdown restrictions right now across Australia, but it will save you 30 minutes on the phone trying to understand why as their website is useless at explaining that lol.

Edited August 13, 2021 by WatchingOracle