Heuer Quartz running fast

[JohnD]

11 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Can someone provide an illustration or photo of the actual stepper of either this or similar vintage watch?

When the rotor sees a magnetic impulse, it will turn.  What stops it?  Well, if the magnetic energy is applied long enough for the rotor to settle to resting state, then magnetic energy itself stops it.  However, if the rotor only receives a magnetic impulse, then there must be a mechanical feature (like the keeper on a calendar ring) impeding the rotor from running past the point where it should stop.  THIS WOULD speed up the watch if it is not impeding properly.

Ideas?

Does this help, Seiko cal. 38 series from early 1970's...

[LittleWatchShop]

4 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Does this help, Seiko cal. 38 series from early 1970's...

Yes, this is great.  What about the "Second jumper?"  That is the term I should have used regarding the calendar ring (sorry).  If the Second jumper is not engaging, the sweep second wheel will just "freewheel" when it gets an impulse.

[LittleWatchShop]

It must be the jumper.  These must be very delicate springs, no?  What happens if a battery goes bad--leaks--the jumper is eaten by the acid?  Is that possible?  I had this happen to a copper winding on a stepper that I fixed the other day.

[KimBowers]

I have attached the best photo's I have of the rotor and the watch movement with the train bridge removed. This shows the rotor's position and the other wheels in the train.

I have contacted Star Times about a replacement circuit board and coil assembly, but they will not take an order from a hobbyist unless they are a NAWCC member. Cousins do not have the part. So I am probably stuck unless one appears on an auction site. 

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

It must be the jumper.  

No. There are quartz modules without a seconds hand, or spring of any sort. There is nothing mechanical stopping the rotor, it stops by itself in a constant position because it's a magnet, with a North South orientation. That's why it is difficult to refit, it wants to stick to the stator, even when not energized. Most but not all rotor magnets are round (a ferrule), the one below is perhaps more revealing of its magnetic properties - polarization. Credit HSMAG

 

[jdm]

13 minutes ago, KimBowers said:

I have contacted Star Times about a replacement circuit board and coil assembly, but they will not take an order from a hobbyist unless they are a NAWCC member. 

There are ways, I can order on ST without being qualified to even wash floors at NAWCC. If in dire need contact by PM. 

[LittleWatchShop]

4 minutes ago, jdm said:

No. There are quartz modules without a seconds hand, or spring of any sort. There is nothing mechanical stopping the rotor, it stops by itself in a constant position because it's a magnet, with a North South orientation. That's why it is difficult to refit, it wants to stick to the stator, even when not energized. Most but not all rotor magnets are round (a ferrule), the one below is perhaps more revealing of its magnetic properties - polarization. Credit HSMAG

 

Thanks for that info.  OK, then what if the rotor (or stator for that matter) have lost some magnetism over the years?  Or what if (by some rare event) the watch was put in a magnetic field that partially demagnetized the rotor?  The earth's magnetic field has been shifting!!  (this is true, but I am kidding about the earth causing this).

 

[JohnR725]

21 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

When the rotor sees a magnetic impulse, it will turn.  What stops it?  Well, if the magnetic energy is applied long enough for the rotor to settle to resting state, then magnetic energy itself stops it.  However, if the rotor only receives a magnetic impulse, then there must be a mechanical feature (like the keeper on a calendar ring) impeding the rotor from running past the point where it should stop.  THIS WOULD speed up the watch if it is not impeding properly.

I suppose you would like to restrict this discussion to older stepping motor watches? Just wait until you get to new technology like making a stepping motor watch step backwards. Or clever ways to do away with the Trimmer capacitor and still get the watch to keep time.

I'm attaching a series of images that should be helpful.

In the image of the drawing of the watch casually your not going to see what you need to see. You have to look at the actual drawing of explaining how the stepping motor watch works to grasp what you're looking at in the other drawing. Specifically the  stater is manufactured to a very specific shape. So while it looks like the rotor is in the center and the hole itself is perfectly symmetrical it is not. But that will make sense when you look at the other drawing that explains and it has text to explain also.

Then you'll notice the pulse width 7.8 ms which agrees with my image up above. But you also see the references to the other pulse widths. On newer watches were there trying to squeeze maximum power from the battery they use an adaptive technology. If the circuit senses that the rotor hasn't rotated it will increase the pulse width as needed.  So for instance  around midnight where the dates indicated discs or the discs are required turning more powers needed the pulse width increases.

From a test point of view current consumption is extremely important when servicing quartz watches. If you block the train you'll see an increase in current consumption. If the pulse with changes you will see a tiny current increase. But not as much as if you block the train.  Then some of the technical sheets will actually specify to measure the current when it's not changing the calendar stuff but it might also give you the current when that's occurring also.

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

27 minutes ago, KimBowers said:

I have contacted Star Times about a replacement circuit board and coil assembly, but they will not take an order from a hobbyist unless they are a NAWCC member

Out of curiosity where are you located?

Edited February 4, 2021 by JohnR725

[KimBowers]

Hi JohnR725. I'm in the UK.

[LittleWatchShop]

32 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I suppose you would like to restrict this discussion to older stepping motor watches? Just wait until you get to new technology like making a stepping motor watch step backwards. Or clever ways to do away with the Trimmer capacitor and still get the watch to keep time.

I'm attaching a series of images that should be helpful.

In the image of the drawing of the watch casually your not going to see what you need to see. You have to look at the actual drawing of explaining how the stepping motor watch works to grasp what you're looking at in the other drawing. Specifically the  stater is manufactured to a very specific shape. So while it looks like the rotor is in the center and the hole itself is perfectly symmetrical it is not. But that will make sense when you look at the other drawing that explains and it has text to explain also.

Then you'll notice the pulse width 7.8 ms which agrees with my image up above. But you also see the references to the other pulse widths. On newer watches were there trying to squeeze maximum power from the battery they use an adaptive technology. If the circuit senses that the rotor hasn't rotated it will increase the pulse width as needed.  So for instance  around midnight where the dates indicated discs or the discs are required turning more powers needed the pulse width increases.

From a test point of view current consumption is extremely important when servicing quartz watches. If you block the train you'll see an increase in current consumption. If the pulse with changes you will see a tiny current increase. But not as much as if you block the train.  Then some of the technical sheets will actually specify to measure the current when it's not changing the calendar stuff but it might also give you the current when that's occurring also.

 

 

 

Very nice document.  Magnetic brake depends on the rotor being sufficiently magnetized.  If not, I expect it would overshoot.  So back to my "most recent" theory, the rotor may be the problem.

[LittleWatchShop]

21 minutes ago, KimBowers said:

Hi JohnR725. I'm in the UK.

If you get someone to order a pcb for you, I would suggest ordering a rotor as well.  If my demag theory is correct, you will need a properly magnetized rotor.  Anyway, that is what I would do.

[JohnR725]

33 minutes ago, KimBowers said:

Hi JohnR725. I'm in the UK.

Perhaps eBay new old stock movements I noticed they have two separate 963. Unfortunately the older circuit but. It looks like the problem is this is considered an obsolete watch and that makes it a challenge. But I would still go with the circuit only but if you bought the whole movement you'd end up with a rotor. But I still suspect it's only the circuit.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ETA-ESA-Quarz-Uhrwerk-diverse-Kaliber-movement-quartz-different-items-work/143916365749

 

 

 

[KimBowers]

Thanks for the link JohnR725. I've ordered the 963.114 movement. Here's hoping !

Regards, Kim.

[LittleWatchShop]

5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Perhaps eBay new old stock movements I noticed they have two separate 963. Unfortunately the older circuit but. It looks like the problem is this is considered an obsolete watch and that makes it a challenge. But I would still go with the circuit only but if you bought the whole movement you'd end up with a rotor. But I still suspect it's only the circuit.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ETA-ESA-Quarz-Uhrwerk-diverse-Kaliber-movement-quartz-different-items-work/143916365749

 

 

 

John, if we are ultimately able to establish a winner in this contest...if I lose...I fly to Seattle and buy you a beer...or if you lose, you come to the GREAT STATE of TEXAS and buy me a beer? 

[LittleWatchShop]

17 minutes ago, KimBowers said:

Thanks for the link JohnR725. I've ordered the 963.114 movement. Here's hoping !

Regards, Kim.

I cannot wait for the answer!

Edited February 4, 2021 by LittleWatchShop
fixed punctuation

[spectre6000]

I know this was a page back (you step away for a minute, and there's three pages of wild troubleshooting fun!), but did I see correctly that a new movement of this type loses nearly a second a day? I never really paid attention to quartz watches (I have a phone and household appliances for that utility), and I thought it was more on the order of a second or two a year.

@LittleWatchShop, Where in Texas are you? I grew up east of Dallas, and used to know a ton of educated EE guys at TI. 

[LittleWatchShop]

10 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

Where in Texas are you? I grew up east of Dallas, and used to know a ton of educated EE guys at TI.

Wimberley...just south of Austin.  My first job was in Dallas (1978) working for Mostek which was a spinoff by a bunch of guys who left TI

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Magnetic brake depends on the rotor being sufficiently magnetized.  If not, I expect it would overshoot.

Perhaps we need an experiment we need to find somebody that has few of these movements that doesn't care about destroying them I wonder who that would be?

3 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

but did I see correctly that a new movement of this type loses nearly a second a day? I never really paid attention to quartz watches (I have a phone and household appliances for that utility), and I thought it was more on the order of a second or two a year.

The discussion has reached an interesting length hasn't it? If you look in the picture I posted the watch I had which is new old stock was a fraction of a second fast.Usually with the trimmer capacitors rated for seconds per month. Another experiment I could see how fast or slow they go if I rotate the trimmer. It used to be had know all of this by memory but it's been so long since I played with this particular model.

 

 

[KimBowers]

Closure at last !

I have received the 963.114 movement and transplanted just the circuit board and coil into my watch, keeping it's original rotor. And all is well. The watch no longer gains when warm or shows the jumping/fast second hand issue.

Many thanks to everyone who helped me sort this out.

Regards, Kim.

[watchweasol]

A sucessful conclusion an interesting discussion, so the electronics were suspect good to know.   thanks.

[LittleWatchShop]

I still lack satisfaction here.  Clearly my rotor theory was wrong, but was the circuit problem related to the crystal or IC.  We will never know.  Would have been fun to do some failure analysis on the board that was removed...alas...

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

We will never know.  Would have been fun to do some failure analysis on the board that was removed...alas...

What about failure analysis on running or other nonrunning but of the same caliber?

On 2/4/2021 at 4:56 AM, LittleWatchShop said:

OK, then what if the rotor (or stator for that matter) have lost some magnetism over the years?  Or what if (by some rare event) the watch was put in a magnetic field that partially demagnetized the rotor? 

We also have your magnetic theory problem?

What if somebody had this identical watch you could test some your theories on it?

By if the rotor was demagnetized which sometimes can happen if somebody puts it on a demagnetizer and pushes the button like 1 million times or there may be some other ways to demagnetized it better than that.

If only we had a few spare movements like this?

[HectorLooi]

What about trying this experiment on some cheap $2 movements? Remove the rotor and deliberately try to demagnetize it. It might even be better to use clock movements as they're bigger and easier to work on.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

What about trying this experiment on some cheap $2 movements? Remove the rotor and deliberately try to demagnetize it. It might even be better to use clock movements as they're bigger and easier to work on.

Yes we could try it on cheap watches but I think we should use the same movement is this one. Because by using a different watch or clock it changes things we need the same movement.