Timegrapher Reading

[wudce]

I got a non running Unitas 6498 pocket watch for free and was dated 1972 so very old. I figure it was just gum up as we say here since the Mainspring had power. Sure enough after tear down it was in fact very dirty and the oil was dry up. After much cleaning and looking at everything under my scope it look good. Got it back up and running but not happy with what my Timegrapher is showing then again it is very old. I check a few things, Hairspring don't look to be binding etc and the jewel seem to be center of the banking pins . I don't like the way the two line are apart and the high beat error.  Not sure what to look at next or if there any helping it. Still learning. Here a pic of it after being on the Timegrapher for about 1 hr. Thanks for the help 

Edited August 28, 2020 by wudce

[Flubber]

I think it should be possible to adjust the beat error by moving the stud the hairspring is attached to since the stud should be mounted to the stud support for etachron.

I think you may some other problems when the graph looks like an irregular wave like that and also the amplitude is very low.

[nickelsilver]

Let off the power, pull the balance and fork. Peg the fork jewel holes. Stick the fork pivots and fork end in clean pithwood. Check the roller jewel for muck, and wipe off if necessary with fresh cut pegwood. See how it goes then.

[mousekar]

There's definitely something going on there. Yes, your beat error a little off and your amplitude is low. Right now, I'd be suspecting that it needs to be disassembled and cleaned again. Peg all the holes, make sure all your pivots are completely clean and pay close attention to the amount of oil you use when assembling again. I suspect that you are losing power and/or getting inconsistent power through your gear train.

Another area to check out is the mainspring. If it's old, and you haven't addressed the mainspring, that would also be another area where power is getting lost. I would also inspect the barrel arbor and the points of contact with the barrel. Make sure those are also absolutely clean. That could be another area of friction you're having. 

Bottom line, don't worry about your beat error till you have your amplitude up. Your amplitude won't be up until you've really made sure that your not losing anything through your gear train from friction or something that's bent or has a gouge in it. Thorough inspection and cleaning with careful oiling and a decision on the mainspring should do the trick.

Good Luck!

Cheers...

[wudce]

A recleaning sounds about right and what I was thinking. I know I spend a good 2 hr's cleaning and I did use ped wood while under my  scope to scape with and each time it when back to my Ultrasonic. It did look very good when I got done but could have miss something. I will tear it down and start over and try again. Thanks for help guys!  

[Nucejoe]

Easy and cost free to move stud arm to zero the beat error, before you jump into another disassemble. Zero beat error means fork delivers energy at just the right instance which by itself increases amplitude. The question remains how healty things are at pallet side of the fork and escape wheel.

Ultrasonic has done cleaned alerady,  except them jewel holes need pegging, and wear on pinions require special attention under microscope. 

There is also the question of side shakes throughout the train and escape, side shake is the cause of depthing, that is; a pinon and gear pushing on each other tightly.

Considering your understanding of crankshaft end play, surely you appreciate the importance of checking end shakes on all arbours. 

Good luck pal.

[JohnR725]

I think you would find the link below interesting it lists lift angles and right now you're at 52° but I think you're supposed it 44° that's going to make a tiny bit a difference.

Ideally for troubleshooting I like to look at the watch in six positions. But on these discussions I compromise you probably have a picture of dial down what about another picture this time moving it so as this is supposedly a pocket watch how about crown up. Typically pocket watches run and crown up anyway. The reason for one of these other positions is resting on the end of the pivot is the least amount of friction the best running put it somewhere where it has more friction problems become more dramatic it's sometimes easier to see things.

Did you take the mainspring out for cleaning?

The amplitude is misleading because your lift angles wrong. Almost looks like maybe magnetism because the sine wave effect did you Have you demagnetized the watch?

As this is a movable stud it's always nice to visually put it in beat before put a known timing machine because sometimes it's hard to adjust it. Beat doesn't have a plus minus and if you're not careful it's really easy to go past and get lost.

Then before making any adjustments can you give us a picture looking straight down on the balance assembly?

12 hours ago, mousekar said:

Bottom line, don't worry about your beat error till you have your amplitude up

Normally this is a correct statement. As amplitude falls much below 200 and gets down to the really horribly pathetic range everything gets blown out a shape but at 200° that's not exactly a bad amplitude. The beach air doesn't look right for another reason in that I don't even know if that is correct beat error because the line spacing looks way too far apart for  2.1 ms. One of the problems with the small display on this machine is it's easy to get rollover errors. So I S have a weird feeling that beat error doesn't look right I would make sure of visually you are in beat because there's something about this it just doesn't look right.

https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/lift_angles

[praezis]

Among good advice already given, I suppose the vertical amplification of your timegrapher is much too high, what makes things look worse than they are.

Frank

[mousekar]

I suppose what I was driving at is that the wave of your pattern has me concerned. There are definitely people on here with much more knowledge than I, but that's where the basis of my comments came from. Seeing a dip and then a rise and then a dip like that, means to me, that you don't have a free running gear train which starts at the mainspring barrel and carries through the escape wheel. I suppose the reason I'm not as focused at the escapement is because the wave itself doesn't look regular. LIke it's moving along and then something happens and then it's back and then something happens at a regular rate. To my eye, it looks like there is friction happening somewhere preventing the free running and lowering your amplitude. Or like I said before, you could have a set mainspring (because you said it was an older movement) in which case the whole thing is underpowered. You also stated it was very dirty. I'm thinking, it doesn't take much, just a little something in one spot and bam, you've got issues. Couple of things we don't know........A. What is the amount of time in between readings you have the timegrapher set at? 4s, 8s, 12s, 20s? In other words, when I'm looking at this, am I getting a change of reading every 4 seconds or more? B. What position is this? If it's DD or DU that would theoretically be the positions you'll have the least friction. Once you start moving into the crown positions, you'll introduce friction on the pivots and gravity on the hairspring pulling your beat error further out and lowering your amplitude even more. 

Things to consider. Interpreting a timegrapher result is tricky especially with limited information. I don't know what kind of oils were used, where, with what oiler, if that oiler was clean, if your oils were clean. You used an Ultrasonic, but how and with what cleaners? I don't know what you used to peg holes. I don't know what level of experience you have, first watch or 144th watch. I'm only offering my opinions on what this could possibly mean, or at least when I look at that this is where my mind goes. Actually, just though of something else......is the balance and hairspring perfectly flat? Old watch, that could also be a possibility. I'm adding a .pdf from Witschi that's really good in giving information on what the machine is listening to and what the numbers given mean. On page 14, at the bottom, it talks about a wave might mean (albeit you have a "softer" wave, but still a wave where power is not smooth through the train of the watch).

My personal opinion is to no worry about the beat error, which can be effected by minor variations like gravity pulling on the hairspring when you change positions, until you know that you have smooth power through the watch and enough amplitude to give a true reading. 199 isn't low per se, but it also isn't enough to give a good reading on the health of the watch. In my opinion only, there is other problem solving that needs to happen before you adjust the beat error. And because we don't know what the rate differences are in other positions, you could also have poising issues we are unaware of. Here are some references that discuss the importance of amplitude, dynamic poising, and how the rate affects your results. This is some really great information, not only from these articles but the whole website. Definitely worth bookmarking and coming back to again and again.

https://adjustingvintagewatches.com/dynamic-poising-2-dial-up-dial-down/

https://adjustingvintagewatches.com/dynamic-poising-3-vertical-rates/

 

Again, I'm only presenting my point of view on this. But I did want to share what has shaped my point of view. How you proceed from here is up to you. I've learned over the years that you have to kinda like the problem solving aspect of it, which can feel daunting and frustrating, but when you get it...very exhilarating. 

Good Luck!

Cheers

Witschi Training Course.pdf

[rodabod]

Ignore the average beat error just now. It’s actually reasonable for the amount of amplitude you have anyway.

Trace makes the escapement look inconsistent, so I’d take Nick’s advice and make sure those components are clean enough. Then test the action of the lever using something like an oiler under a small amount of wind. Check that it “snaps”’over readily and that the amount of lock looks reasonable.  

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, rodabod said:

Then test the action of the lever using something like an oiler under a small amount of wind. Check that it “snaps”’over readily

Obviously everyone oils are escapement differently because when you're oiling your escapement it's a perfect time to check this. Then before powers applied it's really easy to visually verify the watch is close to being in beat no timing machine required.

[wudce]

I think I found some of the problem but still got more to look at. Here is the 2nd wheel and you can see the rust on the gear which I guess I miss first time around. There maybe be other problems I have over look but this has to be fixed. I have already scape some off but still got more to do.I would just replace it with another one but I don't have another 2nd wheel with a extended pivot in stock so I'm taking my time and scrap this off best I can.   

Edited August 29, 2020 by wudce

[Nucejoe]

As long as you keep it away from vinegar, a 24hr saok in Coca cola followed by brushing, I use tooth brush and poweder detergent( keep detergent half dry to act as a cleanser at first),  then dip your brush in water to brush it to a foam, lastly rinse under tap water as you brush, ready for ultrasonic bath. 

 

[wudce]

I got it looking real good now was just surface rust. Will start the rebuild in the AM, I also replaced the mainspring since I have 3 in stock just for GP.