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mikepilk

Oil won't stay in centre of cap jewel, Omega 455

Question

Here's a problem I haven't encountered before ....

I'm working on a small (16mm) Omega 455 and I'm having problems oiling the balance cap jewels. The oil won't stay in a nice circle - see pic.

I've tried re-cleaning and oiling 5 times (including using epilame), but still have the problem. 

There looks to be a small circle of oil at the end of the balance pivot, but the remaining oil is off to one side (both top and bottom). Is this something to worry about or is it OK?

My technique is to oil the cap jewel on the bench (1/3 - 1/2 area covered), then place the inverted chaton on top - a slight press down and the cap jewel should stick. Only it doesn't want to with this movement. Using epilame allowed me to use a big blob of oil, the cap jewel stuck, and the oil was a nice circle, but there was too much and it went down through the chaton hole.

Any ideas ?

 

1236208376_Annotation2020-07-04183659.thumb.png.6b85feef96385c2a567874080e26053a.png

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Firstly, is the stone properly degreased? No oil residue in the degreaser?

Secondly, I sometimes use the same oiler after I’ve deposited the oil to the cap jewel to “ghost” the jewel hole to help it to attract the oil. 

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4 minutes ago, rodabod said:

Firstly, is the stone properly degreased? No oil residue in the degreaser?

Secondly, I sometimes use the same oiler after I’ve deposited the oil to the cap jewel to “ghost” the jewel hole to help it to attract the oil. 

I clean using naphtha, then isopropanol. 

I like the idea of "ghosting" the jewel hole - I'll give it a go.

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8 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

Did you also epilame the chaton/balance staff hole jewel?

Yes, then realised that was probably a mistake (?) so I tried to remove it.

Also, using a microscope I can see every little mark and bit of dust, so I dabbed the jewels with some Rodico to make sure they are spotless. I realise that the Rodico may have left a deposit.

 

Edited by mikepilk

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4 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

Get everything spotless amd try again. If problem still persists I would imagine the problem be caused be distance between jewels too great and/or jewels not meeting parallel. 

You could be right. I scraped off the epilame from all surfaces, and got everything spotless in the ultrasonic - naphtha then isopropanol.

I put a tiny touch of oil on the chaton hole, as suggested by @rodabod, and after assembly it looked great. I had a nice circle of oil on both upper and lower jewels. But after 'exercising' the balance by giving it a blow, the oil on both jewels was no longer a circle. 

I thought they were Incabloc - turns out to be KIF 2, and the cap jewels are the same.

Baffled

 

Annotation 2020-07-05 165410.png

Edited by mikepilk

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Are the springs bent in such a way that the pressure on the cap stone is uneven?

As long as the pivot is wet and the oil doesn’t spread to the edge then I wouldn’t be too worried. 

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48 minutes ago, rodabod said:

Are the springs bent in such a way that the pressure on the cap stone is uneven?

As long as the pivot is wet and the oil doesn’t spread to the edge then I wouldn’t be too worried. 

The springs look fine. I just cleaned everything and tried it all again - same result. 

I agree that as long as there's oil at the pivot, it's OK. Capillary action should move oil to the centre as needed.

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Looks like too much clearance between the cap and hole jewel, I would check that the cap jewel sits inside the fitting, as Rodabod said above the edges may be pinched. 

Another possibility is the cap jewel may not be correct, if you don't have a spare use the one on the other side and see if that helps.

Anilv

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Taking a closer look at your picture it could be the jewel is not sitting right as there appears to be a gap between the jewel edge and the chaton in the upper left quadrant in the circle. So if the jewel is sitting high at the lower left position (of the jewel) this would mean a gap and the oil migration to the upper right.jewel.JPG.e612a6bc2488a9a2b2473ba2a104b72e.JPG

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7 hours ago, anilv said:

Looks like too much clearance between the cap and hole jewel, I would check that the cap jewel sits inside the fitting, as Rodabod said above the edges may be pinched. 

Another possibility is the cap jewel may not be correct, if you don't have a spare use the one on the other side and see if that helps.

Anilv

Anilv, the cap jewels fits nicely, it just seems to be too far above he hole jewel. It sits on the ledge shown by the red arrow :jewels2.thumb.png.dbb9c03659cbc26319751be635400c15.png

jewels4.thumb.png.1eb8be29299dd78cbc28fd2da676d2f7.png

 

The cap jewel

jewels5.png.60e6873391191d98edf82c587abe797d.png

 

The hole jewel from below:

jewels6.png.9e45590aa05f832f830fe3e78994d8eb.png

 

I guess I could try and push the hole jewel up, but it will be tricky with such small jewels, the cap is 0.9 mm.

(sorry, the pics from my microscope camera aren't as good as I was expecting from a 2M pixel camera)

 

 

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7 hours ago, anilv said:

Taking a closer look at your picture it could be the jewel is not sitting right as there appears to be a gap between the jewel edge and the chaton in the upper left quadrant in the circle. So if the jewel is sitting high at the lower left position (of the jewel) this would mean a gap and the oil migration to the upper right.jewel.JPG.e612a6bc2488a9a2b2473ba2a104b72e.JPG

I think you hit the nail on the head.

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1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

I think you hit the nail on the head.

I think the cap fits fine. There is a  little lateral movement, but no more than I would expect. Are you confusing the gap from the clip? 

This is how the cap looks without the clip.

jewels8.png.c77c85c79d9de60074c22b6076d2f274.png

 

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2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I think the cap fits fine. There is a  little lateral movement, but no more than I would expect. Are you confusing the gap from the clip? 

This is how the cap looks without the clip.

jewels8.png.c77c85c79d9de60074c22b6076d2f274.png

 

I agree that the clearance between cap and jewel is too much.

 

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I was hoping that there would be a ledge to push the hole jewel against - so I could see it sat properly, but it just looks like it's  in a tapered hole. I guess I could give it a gentle push by turning the dial at the top of my jewel press. Any idea what the units are on the top of a jewelling tool ? 

 

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13 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Are you confusing the gap from the clip? 

Possibly.. was a guess but if there is a gap that may cause your problem.

roll a bit of rodico into a thin strip (hair thin) and lay it across the hole jewel, the place the cap jewel and press it home, if the rodico deforms you will have an idea of the gap present.. (not my idea, cars and bikes use this concept to measure plain bearing specs).

On old watches someone may have lost the hole jewel and substituted another which almost fits. Also consider some watches have different chatons on either end of the balance. I would remove the ones on your watch and compare.. you would also be able to see and compare the depthing of the jewel.

Anilv

Edited by anilv

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8 hours ago, anilv said:

 

roll a bit of rodico into a thin strip (hair thin) and lay it across the hole jewel, the place the cap jewel and press it home, if the rodico deforms you will have an idea of the gap present.. (not my idea, cars and bikes use this concept to measure plain bearing specs).

On old watches someone may have lost the hole jewel and substituted another which almost fits. Also consider some watches have different chatons on either end of the balance. I would remove the ones on your watch and compare.. you would also be able to see and compare the depthing of the jewel.

Anilv

Good idea !

Putting a bit of Rodico on the hole showed that the gap was much too big. I pushed the hole jewel up a fraction of a smidgen using the gauge on the top of the jewelling tool. And now the oil forms a nice circle. Just the other one to do now.

The chatons and caps are listed as the same part for top and bottom in the Kif catelogue. The caps fit perfectly so I don't know what happened to the hole jewels. 

Maybe when I was rubbing them with some pegwood, I pushed them down a bit.

jewels9.thumb.png.30784d9cf8d3003ef6d9bd92fdeef1c4.png

Edited by mikepilk

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