Leaderboard

I just finished another Seiko 6309 diver over the weekend and finished it off last night, see before and after shots Front: Tape was the only thing holding it together, here is the back of the case: And here is the view when I opened the case : And when I got the movement out: The hands were completely fused to the cannon pinion and the dial paint eaten through to bare metal After cleaning in my 'home-brew' 566 and rinse solutions (please see my other thread, HERE) and then polishing the glass and case, then replacing the dial and hands with aftermarket replacements and a new cannon pinion from a donor watch along with a new bezel (because I had a spare so why not), here is the final result: Very pleased with the result

VW, full respect here, but I've serviced many, many, vintage pieces using isopropyl alcohol as the final rinse, with zero issues. The machine I used mentioned 30 seconds rinse for balance and pallets. But being a lazy guy I often left those parts through the whole cycle of 15+ minutes and while I might have added a bit of shellac to pallet stones after all that, I never lost an impulse jewel. On the other hand, to fully remove shellac I use the method in the Levin book, part in a test tube, 1/3 or so filled with ethanol, over a flame. Boil like hell and avoid ignition of the vapors.

The Tavannes got temporarily re-homed in a small pocket watch case. I haven't cut the stem, and the crown doesn't really work with the case. I'm sure I have a more suitable wristwatch case, but its probably in a large box of "stuff" which was "tidied" into the attic when we had visitors a while back. I think It would look better in a 1930s gents wristwatch style case, but the pocket watch styling does suit the dial, and I may also have a similar but earlier small silver case in the same box of "stuff". For the time being though, it looks a lot better than an orphaned movement in a movement storage box, and certainly a huge improvement on what we started with. I may just run with this case for the time being, and find a suitable crown for it, and worry about it again at a later date if I ever get a chance to improve on it.

the unfortunate reality of watch repair is everybody has to deal with losing parts I lost something yesterday one Meadow hatted the next minute I did not and it has not surfaced as of yet. Or their broken parts and if you want to fix the watch they have to be replaced. http://www.sellita.com/index.php/en/movements let's take a trip let's go someplace online let's look at the first link so at our first destination you'll see a reference to the case number if you enter the case number and properly confined casing parts such as Seiko. I almost never actually look at that I scroll to the bottom where you find categories that will be the next link http://cgi.julesborel.com/ so our next link is let's look up Sellita which unfortunately brings up a problem look at all those watch manufacturers and then you look at all the subcategories and then we get to this company and almost nothing but fortunately you're picking a 200 series. because as you can see there are almost no parts listing just a few other different movements and none of the new stuff http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?begin=SEL_&end=SEL_&label=Calibres_Manufactured_by_SELLITA one of the problems we face is in the early days when there were way way way more watchmakers their way more material houses there were way more people doing cross referencing of parts. As the number of everything decreases the ability to find parts and cross-references also decreases. But this website is by no means the only online site where you can cross reference parts. Is just one of the most convenient that I like to use now where is our final destination? Well you set a specific watch looks like they are both the 200 and the 200 – one. so our final destination almost are the parts for the SW 200.. oh dear this is going to be a problem for you. We may have to rethink the watch you start with because there's a problem now I have to go get the actual tech sheet for the 200 to see if it is a problem or not. now just to remind you the reason why this is a long message and you'd not getting a quick fast answer is because everybody has to go through the steps if they want to find stuff there is no easy fast solution. Now back to the problem image attached that's what happens when you look for the tech sheet for the SW 200 basically a lump everything together in the 200 series. then there's the other strange problem even though we have a parts listing the 200 series down below a pathway to 200 does not exist only to dash one exists? At least that's the tech sheet of looking at I will assume that all the parts interchange which they may or may not. okay the official tech sheet doesn't solve the problem I'm having from the parts listing. http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEL_SW200 right about now I'm questioning my sanity of why am I doing this message in a way and is anyone even going to read it? Okay so what's the problem I'm specifically looking for a spring to hold in the balance jewel assembly when you look at the parts listing above they list more than one type and the tech sheet only shows the one type? Oh and thinking about parts issues one of the problems that comes up is is a conceivable that this watch had variations? The often find out Swiss watches where the lower grade will use a different type of balance shock protection and that means differing types of spring is depending upon which watch you have. If you watch it was manufactured over a long time span it may have started with no protection and moved through various ones depending on pricing etc. you can end up with some vintage watches that have lots of variations. Then yes that makes it really hard and confusing to find parts as I pointed out everybody has parts problems now back to the insanity okay we have this link is for the spring that by the way you shouldn't lose on this watch did you look at the link that I gave prior probably not. If you look at the link you scroll to the bottom there is a picture that explains why the Chinese Springs fallout and the Swiss typically do not. Not that they won't occasionally come out typically the lower ones will and then their real pain to get back in sometimes it's easier just to pop the entire assembly out typically the upper ones will not come out unless you break it off you have to try really hard to get it to come out now back to the link we have a spring number but what kind of a spring number? we get a number that has number 400 that's a category number it that tells us that it's a spring but I'll see if I can find it image to make sure and the other is the actual number. This is a place where newbies will have confusion whenever looking up some part and parts have identification numbers usually to be printed on the package is packages of watch parts are really tiny so they will have a number that's equivalent to like insisting balance staff they will have a number which tells you that the balance staff but you need the second number to tell you which watch it's for. then conveniently the book I'm looking at does not list with the 400 series this not very helpful. http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=X\ZD_ETh 400/811S UPPER/LOWER SHOCK SPRING, INCA oh and now we get to the next problem where my enthusiasm for doing this question is now coming to an end went to get a part number you go to a slightly different webpage from this company and you can look up the part and see what it costs and whether it even still exists except apparently the part doesn't exist oh dear. http://www.julesborel.com/home?search=400%2F811S then I go back to the tech sheet and the spring isn't listed the entire jewel assemblies listed. Budget also noticed a look at some of the parts they have exact part numbers and some of them say variations it's back to we have variations. Now if I absolutely needed this pars I would just call up my local material house and asked Debbie here's my parts number and not offload the responsibility of finding the part on my local material house not very helpful for you though. not looking like a happy ending at all okay worst-case you can purchase this and you will have to disassemble if it's the upper one to get the spring out. http://www.julesborel.com/products/Sellia/SEL-SW200-1-MVT-Sellita-Watch-Movement feeling frustrated I noticed they give a stem number yes the search system does work you get a new stem http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.25048/.f one of the problems were having is in order to find the parts you need a part number and order have a part number somebody asked to list the part number yes that seems really obvious of the part number isn't listed in the tech sheet than the material houses probably won't have the part number because where would they get a part number except. A lot of the problems were facing is in the old days they used to have cross reference books plus the particular balance spring assembly they use the list those spring is on the website at least if it was made with in the time span that the book existed or the cross reference existed. So a lot of the stuff were working with is old my distraction has almost come to an end yes I'm just doing this to distract myself. Because typically if anything gets this long no one's ever going to read this anyway. So looks like Tom was correct if you Google the right phrase you come the right page eventually. So he can get entire upper assembly that includes your spring yes I know you wanted the spring only. Then as I pointed out some more up above on the Swiss version you cannot just pop the spring and you'll have to disassemble the jewel assembly to get to the spring another crisis possibly another tool. But it does give us a clue of something. One week ago back to one of the websites up above look up cross reference of parts and get an exact part number or https://www.ofrei.com/page1765.html then there website used to be a way more friendly but we can eventually get there hopefully now at the link below you'll see pretty pictures of stuff you want to scroll down until you get to a choice.your choice at the very end is product catalog the second item you can click the plus on the far right-hand side of your lucky you get to the product catalog. if you look around long enough will stumble across an image which and is going to attach. Then of course you can look at the cross-references notice they don't cross reference the watch your looking for. Maybe that means the part doesn't actually exist or we get stuck with crappy sites that make it hard to look up stuff . It's amazing the technical data you can accumulate with time getting tired of searching I'm just attaching a PDF page out of their catalog. Yes just like the website where the catalog is fragmented as opposed to one Log in one place their PDFs of the separate sections is now attached. So I should a given you enough information to find your spring. Is it looks like it is a standard and a spring which means you can go back to the website look up the movement and find the spring of actually yourself but you're not going to lose it you're probably just going to break the spring because as I mentioned before the Swiss version the spring does not fall out. At least not typically will have to try really hard https://www.incabloc.ch/en/shock-absorbers/ 1252_Incabloc By Factory - Eta.pdf

Positive update. I called JB and spoke with Kyle that was previously identified in this thread. I explained the situation to him. He is going to arrange for the machine to be shipped to the service center in California. It still has a warranty. Unfortunately, I’ll be without my machine for a month or so, but it will be good to get it repaired properly.

I know the Elma machine at work as a counter well for just about everything in the machine of when stuff needs to be changed but there's definitely a counter on when to change the fluid. But there's also an override button which says remind me later. And then of course we can push the button again and only when it starts looking like maybe it's not cleaning the watch is properly do we think about changing the fluid. Which we don't actually keep a schedule but I would say it takes quite a long time before we have to change the fluid but then were not being watches necessarily every single day either. Then there's people like me that are cleaning a vintage pocket watches and the other watchmaker who can be cleaning a Rolex watch so you probably clean a dozen Rolex watches to one of my pocket watches. Or maybe two dozen Rolex watches versus one pocket watch depends on how bad the watches though so unfortunately there may not be a magical when it should be done because even when the fluid itself looks dirty it may still be able to clean as long as the rinse can reduce the concentration of debris from the cleaner down to nothing. I guess basically when your watch doesn't look clean you should start changing fluids which is basically what we do it ignore the counter on the machine

When I was a young lad working for my dad at his watch shop in Houston, I would often catch the bus downtown to pick up material from Prague & Kurtz material house. It was like walking into an auto parts store or a John Deere Service desk today. Long counter...several people taking orders and disappearing into a (ostensibly) warehouse and returning with the parts. The people behind the counter were very knowledgeable.

we've discussed this before. It seems to be that differing people have differing experiences. also for his test he has a whole bunch of identical pallet forks may be there the problem. I wonder where those test pallet forks came from maybe they were rejected from the factory for some reason like they dissolve in isopropyl alcohol? who would've thought that isopropyl alcohol has reached the status of horological lubrication as a controversial subject. Oh we do have another minor issue what exactly is shellac? Yes we all know what it is it's the stuff that holds the pallet and the roller jewel in place but what exactly is it? I'm sure some enthusiastic person will look it up for us which is why I'm not doing it. the reason I bring this up is is it conceivable that shellac is not exactly the same substance universally over time and space? I remember when I was in school the instructor George liked his vintage bottle shellac versus the modern bottles. Don't remember why just remembered he liked his vintage bottle then as I accumulated shellac over time I discovered that some of it does seem to flow in work better than other bottles. Then my current favorite was somebody distributing flake shellac because they had the purchase I think a pound of it from the painters store. So it's flake shellac used for varnish I believe and this stuff has a really beautiful flowing characteristic. So is it conceivable that the shellac is somehow different which is why we have differing experiences? you didn't say how long it takes to dissolve the shellac on the pallet fork for instance? Second set the elevated temperature of a minute or two how fast would you guess. The reason I bring this up is that same alcohol that you use which will dissolve shellac even at room temperature if you leave it in there long enough is the same substance I use for my final rinse at home. Purchased because it was inexpensive at the hardware store and I needed alcohol for final rinse how was I to know that alcohol was so evil and bad but at least it's not isopropyl as it seems to have a more evil reputation. So yes I know it dissolves shellac but I only have the watch parts in there for 30 seconds or so just enough to rinse off the previous rinse it goes right into the dryer and I never had a problem. The video above is a bit troubling because the machine at work does use ultrasonic two separate frequencies spins things uses a vacuum to make sure that everything gets everywhere it's supposed to be. Uses a final rinse of isopropyl alcohol and the best of my knowledge I've never seen a pallet fork come out with all that shellac missing. So I have a theory whatever lurks in the night or whatever that you fear is what's going to get you. So if you fear isopropyl alcohol and watches keep it away from the watch otherwise you'll probably dissolve the shellac and the pallet fork. then to a certain degree we have too many variables here including conceivably modern factories that might not even be using shellac. If the factory doesn't have to adjust the pallet fork there is no need to use shellac to hold the stone and they could conceivably even use a variety of glues or epoxy and who knows how they're going to behave with isopropyl alcohol or for that matter any other cleaning fluids.

Please watch this video. It has really confused me to the point that I only clean balance assemblies and pallet forks by hand in benzine.

OK, so my next plan for my home-brew 111 is to increase the Oleic acid % and reduce the ammonia % to keep the mix acidity and avoid the formation of soap, then hopefully all I will need to do at the end is remove the water layer once the ammonia has leeched out from the water into the solvent. So the range of Oleic acid is between 10% to 5%, so I'll mix 100ml batches each with 10% Oleic acid and then start increasing the ammonia from 0% concentration in 0.5% increments until I find the percentage of ammonia that starts to form gel/soap. Any comments/ideas/suggestions? Perhaps a better solution would be to perform a final rinse in 100% naptha, this would remove any worries about shellac and also remove the issue of the drying? what are proples opinions? Here are the recipes I'll use - 0.0% Ammonia (Control): 0.5% Ammonia: 1.0% Ammonia: 1.5% Ammonia: 2.0% Ammonia: 2.5% Ammonia: 3.0% Ammonia: I know from my previous batch that 3.5% Ammonia produces the gel/soap, so no need to repeat that, obviously if I find a solution that starts to produce the gel/soap I will not proceed with trying higher concentrations - I'll try and make these over the weekend and let you know which (if any) is the winner!

I spared it the axe, and put it on a pin brooch clip from my scrap box. I may shorten the length of the tail on it slightly. It runs well, and has a nice simple Bauhaus style dial with more than a hint of the Junghans Max Bill about it.

I have been using Tg - the open source time grapher program while resting the watch on the keyboard - it has proved to be OK for some watches but the readings can be all over the place or it just simply doesn't register anything. Not satisfied with the results (or lack of) I looked at buying a dedicated timegrapher but instead decided to tryout a microphone for use with Tg (or other apps). $35 including shipping and tax I got myself this https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004647148661.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.11.510d1802vsNtDv Here is a screenshot after I cleaned, lubricated, demagnetised and regulated a Soviet watch I bought on eBay for £4.08 Other things I learned from this I think my ultrasonic cleaner magnetised the watch parts... So I had to buy a demagnetiser The shock setting springs on Soviet watches are VERY hard to get back in place!

Hello and welcome.

There are many variables, as you say, but if the movements are fairly well looked after, lets say they had all been serviced every 5 to 6 years, then they aren't really going to be minging dirty, so I would estimate around 30 movements can be cleaned for every Elma jar of L and R cleaning fluid used. You might clean more depending on how dirty the fluid gets.

Haha. I step on thin ice everyday John. But certainly apologies if he was good teacher. We all had our favourites, and my history teacher was hilarious after lunchtime.

the interesting problem here is how do you find the local material house or even one in the state that you might live in? I remember when I started watch repair we had a list of the material houses when I was in school. So we knew where they all were at least the physical ones in Seattle. But I remember looking in the phone book and they weren't even listed in the phone book which always made me wonder how you would even know they exist. How do you find a business that doesn't seem to be listed anywhere? it becomes the interesting problem of how do you find a business that doesn't seem to be listed anywhere on the planet. There must be other material houses physical ones that exist across the planet. Or even some of the online ones how many of those still have a physical counter or phone number and email or whatever that you can use the order stuff with? Yes if you look at some of the online ones in the fine print they will tell you whether they will take a phone call or something. cousins becomes interesting if you read their history and the fine print they only exist online if you're not online they don't exist at all apparently. yes the trade problem is interesting. The assumption if you're in the trade you know we exist if you don't know we exist we don't want to know that you exist. Then of the two Seattle material houses one of them will sell to everybody and they will sell anything that they have. The other one will only sell things were you are the final consumer of the item. In other words tools cleaning supplies and the excuse is tax issues. All final sales have to have sales tax collected. So all of the watch parts are considered wholesale and you have to have a business license if you're going to purchase watch material. Because you're typically not the final user of the material and it has to do with tax issues supposedly. but quite a few people I know get around that's because they have business licenses there in business for some other purpose they don't care what your business licenses only that you have one if you want to purchase watch material. So yes in the trade then yes that affects lots of things not watch repair only.

Not the "tripod-spring", if you use this DIY device;

Last week, I bought a bunch of stuff from an NAWCC member. Lots of junk quartz watches, but a few accutron tuning fork watches and some accutron quartz watches. I think whoever worked on this accutron quartz accidentally switched out a solid gold back where a gold filled one probably was. I have seen lots of accutrons where the wording on the back says "gold filled" whereas this one just says "gold." I think it is 14K solid gold. Opinion?

Are you sure it was a vintage bottle of shellac that George liked, i had a history teacher at school that had a vintage bottle that he dipped into every lunchtime.

Maybe somewhere like this? https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/swissmadetime?_trkparms=folent%3Aswissmadetime|folenttp%3A1&_trksid=p3542580.m47492.l74602 if you want parts I think you would be more likely to find them for Sellita/Soprod/STP movements than Chinese, but they are an order of magnitude more expensive. Tom

Some days I'd trade a kidney for a place like that ... ...and I don't mean to sound like I'm knocking the US suppliers, it's just that it isn't as easy as shopping with Cousins or Flume. More than a few of them still believe in 'to the trade' which makes it difficult for the rest of us....but once you sort of discern how to deal with each house I've found most of them to be helpful, accommodating compadres. I have a bit of a professional crush on the woman at Ofrei- fast, efficient, knowledgeable...

to grasp what part of the problem is read about cousins. When cousins gets into the material business they recognize their customers are not in the same location they are so basically there a mail order business people probably sent them a letter or telephone them before the days the computer they basically had set up an online business. Which why today there very popular because it basically all online https://www.cousinsuk.com/history the problem with the US material houses are for the most part they're not online. Yes I know some of them are online but a lot of them are not or what is online is just a fraction of whatever they have. I heard a story that one of the material houses back East purchases other material houses and when they do they bring the new material house and put it in the warehouse someplace they do not integrate into the system. That is because there is actually multiple of differing numbering schemes for the parts integrating lots of little parts that cost small sums of money is not cost effective. So typically what you're going to see online is only the stuff they have insufficient quantity. Everything else you're going to have to call them email or income higher as to whether they have whatever it is you seek. Then of course there is the other material houses the ones that have no online presence at all they still exist. In Seattle we have two of them you can physically walk into their establishment and purchase things or you can telephone them or email them but they have no online presence at all. So more than likely there is quite a few of those spread across the US where you have to reach out to them somehow and a course these ones will probably not ship out of the area. then let's look at a problem I see a specific request for specific mainspring then you go to this page it has your watch and it lists the mainspring. Yes it's a generic replacement but still he gives us a number it also means that you could probably order that exact same mainspring from cousins because they distribute the same mainsprings. Is the problem today of limited quantity of people manufacturing mainsprings. http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK_6309A then you get this link the mainspring and it's part numbers in which watches has the same mainspring. http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=T`ZF]EX then they go to the homepage looks like you have to use the Seiko number the mainspring number doesn't seem to work? That's always the fun on the websites of trying to figure out which number you're supposed to use because to a certain degree of all the websites suck http://www.julesborel.com/products/watch-parts-mainsprings/0401615 cousins is being a pain but all share the pain based on the link above I know how wide the spring is so ended up at this link and you can scroll down and you'll eventually get the right number which is just same number he got the website above but with the spaces taken out. basically looking for GR2534X now let's see if I can do a search for that can get an exact linkthe second link does have yet it's not as informative as going through well I'll snip out a image of you go through the first link and find it versus the second link which just as a place and isn't overly helpful but at least you could purchase it https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/up-to-105mm-height https://www.cousinsuk.com/search?searchTerm=GR2534X

yes that does look like a solid gold back. Usually there very clear if it's plated or something else and here it's clear that it is gold with no qualifiers of plating or rolled gold or anything else.

this does provide a minor clue. In other words they are not using DIY cleaning fluids or DIY cleaning machine's that means they must've come from somewhere. Perhaps inquire from the manufacturers of the cleaning fluids how you would purchase the cleaning fluids in your country.

It should be solid 14K gold. If it were plated or rolled gold, Bulova would have stated it clearly. Is the under surface of the caseback gold or silver colored?

Hi Scott, I’m probably not going to be much help. The biggest problem with these integrated bracelets is they don’t seem to manufacture stairs, or at least not many. If there is a case number you could form a search based on that. Otherwise only ideas I have are to make a new one yourself by hand. Tom

No, not really, it's just that I base my opinion on my personal experience. As mentioned, I have no real need to debate it any further than I've already done in other threads. I just wanted to share my conclusion for what it's worth. Your statement makes perfect sense, and I wish I could share the opinion/experience that Shellac isn't affected by IPA when treated for just a few seconds. Unfortunately, I can't, and it's a mystery to me

If the back is gold good chance the case is gold. If the case ain't gold I have an exhibition Back that should fit if you don't want to put the gold one back on it.

Acid test at your jeweler is a sure way to find out.

Yes, most of the US watch part suppliers are terrible online. I get most parts from Cousins, Flume, eBay and have them sent to the US. Otto Frei is sometimes worth a phone call but they ship slow... ...and yes, instead of the Seiko 401615 you're likely getting either generic equivalent or in the case of Ofrei its an ETA that fits. I think its a little longer at 430mm instead of 420mm for the original...

So you disagree with the manufacturers of watch cleaning machines. If they damaged parts wouldn't the first to know be the pro's who clean watches daily, and stop doing it?

This is water based, but was promoted by Gruen at one time (way back). The Finnish clock cleaning solution (mentioned in the above link) I use (and make) is: 1 L 99% isopropyl alcohol 3L distilled water 50g oxalic acid 60g oleic acid then ammonia added to the above mixture (warm), it all goes cloudy, keep adding and stirring until it goes clear. It happens quite suddenly, and is the point where the ammonia has fully "consumed" the oleic acid, making a soap. From experience it's around 80g of 24% ammonia. With both you would do water rinse, finishing with iso alcohol to absorb the water, then dry with heated air flow.

Oooh.... replicate 111. Cool! I'm paying SGD $180 for a bottle of 111. If anyone comes up with a good solution, (pun intended), I'll send him a bottle of champagne!

Ha, I almost wrote jokingly that I should send it to Karlsruhe for some detective work! I'll send it! This is the beast

Interesting thread, but I got rather lost even translating to English- what was the conclusion for Nivarox springs and magnetism? I was under the impression that they still perform more or less normally even if (lightly) magnetized? As to Greiner and their old stuff, I am quite amazed how solid they are after many decades. Were they using Mil-spec components or something? And they made some cool stuff. Just got a Greiner mic that apparently does 6 positions automatically; not sure how it works (can't get it to do anything other than light up), a quick look inside topside shows a Greiner favorite, a Cerberus thyratron tube... haha.