Balance staff replacement without staking set??

[Endeavor]

I've noticed that the top-pivot of my Landeron 48 balance staff has a wear groove in it. Of course, I could leave it, but since the movement is in parts and I like to learn as much as possible from it, I was wondering whether it is possible to change the balance-staff out without a staking set ? Obviously more risk, but is it possible at all ?

Any old tricks of the trade ........ ? Which hand tools are needed ?

Hope to hear ......

[Geo]

The simple answer is no.

 It's the one part of a watch movement that I wouldn't recommend trying to repair without the correct tools.  You first have to remove the hairspring and roller table then either cut off or break the riveted area where the balance is located on the shaft.  This is where you need a lathe, staking set or platax tool to do it accurately and safely.  

The new shaft then has to be fitted precisely aligned with the wheel and then riveted, this you will need a staking set to do correctly.

[transporter]

Got agree, you really do need a staking set, at the bare minimum a set of stakes and staking table. That's how I started, then I got a staking tool, that made everything so much easier, I had to drill out the tube to fit my stakes as they weren't a matching set, but now work perfectly.

[Endeavor]

Thank you @Geo and @transporter for your answers. I just had another look at staking sets, but time didn't make them cheaper

I was hoping that it could be done, one way or another and despite the increased risk, by hand. Looking at Mark's video, making a visual judgment (please correct me if I'm wrong), the hairspring and roller could be removed using fine edged lever-type hand-removers (?).

Transporter: What do you mean with a "staking-table"? Would a "staking-block" do? https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/36-hole-bergeon-1902

If so, 3 punches are needed. 1) to remove the staff 2) to "initiate" the rivet and 3) to flatten the rivet.

I'm also not sure if the Landeron 48 staff is friction fit or riveted type. That's another leaning point ......

[Geo]

Removing the hairspring and the roller table is the easy part, it's the removal and fitting of the staff that needs the specialist tooling.

[Endeavor]

I guess leaving it as is, with the wear-ring in the pivot is an option. Finding a new balance is another option or scan the internet for a, for me, affordable staking set ...... Hmmm .....

 

[jdrichard]

Or find a friend with a Staking set and the skills


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[Endeavor]

Indeed, that's another option However I like to learn the skills, one way or another ......

I'm scanning the internet for a suitable (cheap) set ....... patience is also a difficult skill, for me at least  

[szbalogh]

3 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Would a "staking-block" do?

As You know i am brave watch butcher but to replace a balance staff... even i had no guts to try 

The correct way to remove the balance is to cut the staff from the support side on the lathe. By simply pushing out the balance staff from the balance can distort the balance and scrape the balance hole making it bigger, so the new staff with the same size may wobble. 

Staking back would be an easy part, since one can make a simple staking tool and turn the desired stakes. This is actually on my list

[jdrichard]

As You know i am brave watch butcher but to replace a balance staff... even i had no guts to try 
The correct way to remove the balance is to cut the staff from the support side on the lathe. By simply pushing out the balance staff from the balance can distort the balance and scrape the balance hole making it bigger, so the new staff with the same size may wobble. 
Staking back would be an easy part, since one can make a simple staking tool and turn the desired stakes. This is actually on my list [emoji4]

But if you don't have a wonderful lathe then Staking it out is your only option, unless you cut it out with a drumel tool


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[SSTEEL]

I had a job in recently which turned out to be the staff had worked loose from the balance wheel, however after looking more closely, the hole the staff normally pressed into had enlarged due to the staff being loose for so long, so no chance of re-pressing that back in.  Ended up replacing the wheel.

[david]

Endeavor,

Here is a nice set from Uncle Larry's Watch Shop for $129.00.

david

[SSTEEL]

Thats actually a great price for a complete set.!

[Endeavor]

@david I presume that Uncle Larry is in the States? If so, I have to add shipping cost and the Kings-servants over here charge import duty over the combined amount; purchase price + shipping cost. So, if the paperwork is done as per obeying citizen, that's going to be about the double of in Uncle Larry shop I'm afraid

The set has to come from within Europe to avoid that the King takes his share.......

Edited February 16, 2017 by Endeavor

[david]

Endeavor,

No, he is in Canada. Send him an email and ask about the shipping cost.

[email protected]

david

[david]

Endeavor,

This video steps through the process of removing a staff with a staking set.

david

[Endeavor]

@david Thank you   The are also a few sets on eBay auctions, within Europe. Unfortunately everything from the States or Canada, or to be more precise, outside Europe, the King-servants are charging import duties over everything with > $20 in value. This amounts up to 100 - 150%! (VAT; 25% is only one part of it, it's the different administration fees who seal the "deal")

Cars in Denmark cost (factory price + 25% VAT) x 200% registration cost (to get the number-plate) ..... but I digress

I will watch the video, thanks for the link !

[clockboy]

There is another tool that can be used & I have used it with pocket watch staffs. It works by placing it over the old staff & pressing firmly on the balance rim and when pressing the plunger (which is spring loaded) it shocks the old balance staff out. The shaft is the same diameter as a staking tools punch and it is recommended that it is also used with a staking tool. I must admit I have not used it for a few years now but it does work but a bit crude.
The bottom line is use the correct tools if available.

[szbalogh]

As i understand the balance is riveted on the staff at the balance shoulder/riveting shoulder. So the staff got altered and the balance is intact.

http://great-british-watch.co.uk/how-to-make-a-balance-staff/

Although, there are balance staffs without a balance shouéder/riveting shoulder. Here, the collet shoulder is tapered and/or the balance wheel is riveted at the wheel arm. So the balance got altered and the staff is intact. See attached picture.

I think the latter type could be simply staked out. 

[Endeavor]

What Collin does (web-site link above) is pretty amazing .....to say the least

@clockboy Seems we are getting closer (?)

Edited February 16, 2017 by Endeavor

[Geo]

10 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

@clockboy Seems we are getting closer (?)

You still need a staking set to use the suggested tool.

[szbalogh]

Just now, Endeavor said:

What Collin does (web-site link above) is pretty amazing .....to say the least

You put the bug in my ears with this topic... i will have to get back and try again the balance staff turning as well. 

[clockboy]

Just to add an important point. Normally removing a balance via punching it out (I use a Platax tool) is OK providing the rim of the balance is securely held and that the balance staff is not made of the old style metal. This is important as the hole that the staff is held by is not distorted/stretched and the rim of the balance is also not distorted during removal the process. I have read in a few BHI reports that some of the old style staffs where made of superior metals. If the staff does not show signs of moving with gentle taps you will have to remove the rivet using a graver & lathe to remove without causing unnecessary damage. 

[Endeavor]

@clockboy Interesting information, but that doesn't simplify things !

Has anybody any idea what kind of material the Landeron 48 staff (say 1950's) staff may be? Has anybody on this forum attempted a Landeron 48 balance staff change-out?

I also understood from a YT-video the a friction-fit balance staff has a blue balance shoulder, this seems to be the tell-tale for friction fit staffs (?).

@Geo Thanks and understood, I'm working on it ..... ........it takes time to find an appropriate deal

[chadders1966]

Hi

As stated there are methods for removing the staff with a staking set and various balance staff removal tools or the Bergeon Platax tool, but neither are recommended because of the possible distortion to the balance. Many people still do it though as it is often works fine.

The recommended ways are to cut the balance out on a lathe or grind the hub away. Bergeon (who else!) used to sell a machine for this - Molfres 5482. I suppose it may be possible to do this with a rotary tool, but you would need a steady hand ;). Even so, as already pointed out you would still need a staking set to properly insert the new staff.

Stephen