Help needed with removing stuck pallet fork and escapement wheel

[robmack]

Hi,

Newbie here asking for for repair advice.  I obtained a Waltham Riverside 16 size 19 jewel lever set pocket watch from a local consignment store, priced attractively because it was not working.  I've started the disassembly to discover the cause(s) for the non-working condition.  One cause seems to be that something has fouled the wheel train, causing the wheels to stick in the jewels.  I've coaxed the Centre, 4th and 3rd wheels from their confinement.  However, the escapement wheel is still tight in its  upper hole jewel and the pallet fork in its upper hole jewel.  I want to know the correct method to safely extract these parts.  I sense that pulling the parts from their confinement is not the best way and maybe soaking in a solvent is better.  If soaking, which solvent?  Any advice welcomed.

Another problem is that there is no resistance when winding so I feel that there is a problem with the main spring (broken, or out of place).  I've extracted the barrel but don't quite know how to open it for inspection.  Can someone help with this question also?

[oldhippy]

Photos would help. You could put a little watch oil on the pivots to see if that helps, I'd sooner see photos, I don't want you breaking stuff.

[robmack]

Photo below shows the pallet fork and escapement wheel captured in their respective jewels on the train bridge and pallet cock..

Edited December 20, 2016 by robmack

[oldhippy]

How strange, oil should do the trick, if you can soak it in oil for some time that would be better.

[robmack]

Ok Oldhppy.  Thank you for that advice.  I do have lots of time to do this job so I will soak the parts as you suggest until they give way.

As for my second question, I did some more searching on the Internet and think I found my answer.  The Riverside mainspring uses a two part arbour.  The barrel assembly is separated by screwing  the ratchet wheel back onto the arbour after removing the barrel assembly from the watch.  Then separate the arbour by twisting  the barrel using the ratchet wheel as a purchase for your fingers.  I will try this method.

[Hamish]

Hi,

You may have a problem with rust on these parts and if so (and not being a metallurgist) there may be some expansion within the jewels causing the tight fit. All I can say is that these pivots are very very fragile and I would think even more so if weakened with rust. Remember that whatever solvent you choose to use that you have to consider its effect on the shellac (if so used) on the pallet fork jewels. The other cause could be someone spraying something like WD40 on the movement thinking it was a service. I have seen that in the past and it does seem to eventualy dry and seize parts. I would think Shellite the solution.

With respect to the mainspring, it seems like, as you say, that the mainspring has broken. Hopefully this has not contributed to your first problem in some way. There are probably 'proper' ways to dismantle the barrel, but I have found that placing the barrel so that the seamed side is up and using thumbnails on the gear 'ring' and gently pushing causes the the arbor to get the cap to spring off. You will see if the spring is broken quite easily.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Hamish
grammar

[Hamish]

Sorry Robmack, my post just missed your update and is redundant

Hamish

[Geo]

If you Soak the parts in lighter fluid overnight it will soften the old oil that has turned to glue.  If that doesn't work try penetrating oil, not WD40.

This is the best proprietary penetrating fluid I have come across, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Plusgas-809-10-Lubricating-Oil-Tin-And-Spout-250Ml-07660704897-Gasplus-/111601414317?hash=item19fbf670adI have been using it for years when working on old bikes and cars.

Soak the parts in the above for a couple of days, it should do the trick.  

[rodabod]

I'd try lighter fuel. 

Obviously don't heat the pallets or use any solvents which could dissolve the shellac. 

[Marc]

I'm not sure because it's hard to tell from the camera angle but it looks like you may be needing to source a replacement pallet fork, or at least pallet fork arbor. From what I can see in your pic it looks as though the lower pivot has already broken off, a side on pic would confirm this and would also give a better idea of the condition of the escape wheel lower pivot.

[robmack]

@Hamish:  Thank you for the concern about the rust condition.  What you're seeing in the photo are artifacts from the lighting and the cell phone camera.  This watch is rust free.  There is no sign on any parts of any rust or corrosion.  The spot you're seeing in the photo is a slight surface stain.

@Marc: You are correct.  The lower pivot has indeed broken off.  I examined the pallet fork under the microscope and the pivot is missing.  I can see that the broken pivot piece is stuck in the hole jewel on the baseplate.  What are my chances of sourcing a replacement pallet fork?  If low, then I guess this is a parts movement.

[robmack]

@Marc:  Meant to add in my previous post that I inspected the other parts under the microscope and the pivots on the escapement wheel as well as the balance are all intact.  The 3rd, 4th and Centre wheels also look fine under the microscope as do the jewels in the baseplate and bridges (i.e. nothing obvious like cracked or mssing jewels).

[Marc]

I would say that your best chances are going to be a parts movement, either from eBay or from somewhere like Dashto. I've not had to source Waltham parts myself so would have to start from scratch with my search if it were me. I'm sure that someone else on here will have some better suggestions though.

[WileyDave]

Try this guy, he's fair when it comes to parts movements.

http://daveswatchparts.com/WalthamMovements.html

[robmack]

Thanks Wileydave.  I sent an email to Daveswatchparts.

[JohnR725]

Waltham was a rather innovative company that made interesting watches to puzzle watchmakers. Like changing the balance staff and opening the mainspring barrel. Attached is an image of the barrel which I think you have.

[ramrod]

On 12/21/2016 at 6:23 AM, rodabod said:

I'd try lighter fuel. 

Obviously don't heat the pallets or use any solvents which could dissolve the shellac. 

i have found that lighter fluid DID soften the shellac on a pallet fork. i soaked a pallet fork from a seiko 6309 movement and one of the stones fell out. to be fair, it soaked for about 3 days because i forgot about it, but i have reason to believe that it was the fluid that didi it and NOT the fact that it was ready to fall out to begin with.

[robmack]

Soaking the parts in lighter fluid for 30 minutes dissolved the crud enough to allow me to release the escapement wheel and pallet fork from their prison.  The watch parts have cleaned up nicely.  I'm now seeking out the replacement parts.

Rounding out the mainspring barrel discussion, this movement is equipped with a Waltham jeweled Safety Barrel.  The non-jeweled version is as illustrated above by JohnR725.  The barrel I have has a cylindrical pivot on the bottom of the barrel (as shown on the left in the photo I attached), not a square cutout to accept a square pin on the arbor.

[Wesley881]

Hi @robmack, I have a Waltham 12s that has the non-jeweled mainwheel configuration.  I'm having a difficult time getting the barrel assembly back together with the new mainspring installed.  Does it need to be pressed together?  The height of the mainspring is the same as the original, but there appears to be a gap between the main wheel and barrel when the bridge is installed over it and I have the ratchet wheel installed.  Any thoughts would be appreciated, this is my first Waltham rebuild.

Best,

C

[robmack]

Hi Wesley,

I am unable to answer your question because I don't have the experience with Waltham 12S movements.  The mainspring barrel on that size could be significantly different in construction than the 16S I described in this thread. So, my experience is probably not transferable.

I would suggest starting a new thread with your question so that you get direct and pertinent replies.