How do you assemble this? Bifora wristwatch

[DesertKing]

Hi everyone, I have a Bifora vintage wind up watch, German made. I don't know how to assemble it and no horologist or watchmaker or jeweler that I contacted wants to help. I would really appreciate it if someone could direct me to the proper website, magazine, book, anything so I can fix it and get it working again. I have all of the pieces, my only problem is figuring out how to assemble it. These pics are references, My watch looks just like the one in the picture. I really want to fix it but lack the expertise. Thanks a lot 

[JohnR725]

As far as learning watch repair goes you're in the right place. All sorts a help to be found here. But if you're only trying to do one watch then not sure how helpful we can be. This is because even to do one watch there certain base items you need and after that an infinitely long list of tools you will never have all the tools you ever need. So to start off with tweezers, movement holder, loupe, Screwdrivers, variety of forms a lubricants and the tools for applying the lubricants. Then you didn't say the condition conceivably cleaning supplies.

So the watches currently in pieces why? They usually came assembled so how did this one end up in pieces?

Then the advice to the beginner is never starts with something that you want to keep. The reason for this is the likelihood of success with your first watch is almost nonexistent. You'd need a lot of practice assembling disassembling getting your hand eye coordination right. Basically a lot of practice on something that you don't care about.

So a watch like this is challenging to do because it appears to be a watch that really wasn't meant to be serviced perhaps. The reason is the entire gear train is hidden under one plate limited number of screws. At least it has screws modern versions are usually welded together.

So with a problem is a variety of ways to go about solving the problem. So first we can identify what this is that is covered in the first link. Once we identify what it is we can Google and there's a surprising amount of information like the second link which basically shows you what you need to know to put it back together. But lubrication isn't covered and as you reassemble you will have to lubricate it's not something can be done afterwords.

Then before even starting we should probably get some pictures of your pieces. Reason why we need to see pictures and is depending upon how it came to be in pieces if the person disassembly didn't grasp what they were doing things can be permanently damaged.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?11&ranfft&0&2usau&1132761612

http://17jewels.info/movements-en/movements-b-en/movements-b-bifora-en/279-bifora-2025.html

[Geo]

Excellent advice John!

[DesertKing]

On 10/10/2016 at 11:54 PM, JohnR725 said:

As far as learning watch repair goes you're in the right place. All sorts a help to be found here. But if you're only trying to do one watch then not sure how helpful we can be. This is because even to do one watch there certain base items you need and after that an infinitely long list of tools you will never have all the tools you ever need. So to start off with tweezers, movement holder, loupe, Screwdrivers, variety of forms a lubricants and the tools for applying the lubricants. Then you didn't say the condition conceivably cleaning supplies.

So the watches currently in pieces why? They usually came assembled so how did this one end up in pieces?

Then the advice to the beginner is never starts with something that you want to keep. The reason for this is the likelihood of success with your first watch is almost nonexistent. You'd need a lot of practice assembling disassembling getting your hand eye coordination right. Basically a lot of practice on something that you don't care about.

So a watch like this is challenging to do because it appears to be a watch that really wasn't meant to be serviced perhaps. The reason is the entire gear train is hidden under one plate limited number of screws. At least it has screws modern versions are usually welded together.

So with a problem is a variety of ways to go about solving the problem. So first we can identify what this is that is covered in the first link. Once we identify what it is we can Google and there's a surprising amount of information like the second link which basically shows you what you need to know to put it back together. But lubrication isn't covered and as you reassemble you will have to lubricate it's not something can be done afterwords.

Then before even starting we should probably get some pictures of your pieces. Reason why we need to see pictures and is depending upon how it came to be in pieces if the person disassembly didn't grasp what they were doing things can be permanently damaged.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?11&ranfft&0&2usau&1132761612

http://17jewels.info/movements-en/movements-b-en/movements-b-bifora-en/279-bifora-2025.html

Thank you so much for your help. I know well enough to not take a watch apart. This watch belonged to my godfather, I got to see it when it was still working. I didn't ask him why he took it apart but I came across it when I visited him during the summer. It was in a plastic box. My guess is he thought he would save some money by fixing it himself. Anyways, he gave it to me because it was practically useless to him. These are all of the pieces that came with it. I have attached multiple pictures that display all of the pieces that were part of the watch, I have a lot of homework to do and I know this will take a long time. I do intend on keeping it, even if I can never fix it myself. I'll definitely get my hands on the appropriate tools and lubricants and will make my attempts with it with the highest delicacy. In its current state, it's just sitting behind my drawer. If it were possible I would even pay in gold to have it reassembled. Thank you for your very kind help. 

[RyMoeller]

That's an interesting movement there.  It looks remarkably like a US Time M21 which is the movement found in many Disney character watches from the 1950's - 1960's.  The M21 is a full plate pin-pallet movement- easy to take apart but a real pain to put back together.  The difficulty will be lining up the pivots for each wheel when you install the top plate.  It can be done but it takes patience and a 5x loupe at the least.  The silver lining to working on a movement like this is the minimal number of screws to keep track of.  I think there's probably half a dozen in the whole thing.

Here's two picks of the M21 I worked on- one with the plate off and one with the plate reinstalled:

At the very least for reassembly you'll need the proper screwdriver, a good set of tweezers, a 5x loupe, and a heck of a lot of patience.  Good lighting helps a lot too.

[DesertKing]

Well I figured out how it works. I know how to assemble it now. The only problem is, one of the pieces is broken. I figured out that one of the needle-like ends is missing and that piece connects to the seconds hand. What is it called so I could replace it? The broken piece is the one that's on the cardboard and next to the main watch piece. The other two are working.  Thank you all

[StuartBaker104]

If the movement identification is correct you are in luck as you can buy a 3rd wheel with extended pivot for a Bifora 2025 from Cousins https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/bifora-movement-parts

Bad news is this will cost you £30

My advice would be to try harder to find a watchmaker who can assemble and lubricate this properly for you. You will spend more on oils and tools than you will on a watchmakers time.

S

[bobm12]

I still would like to see the Befora....err, After-A?

Just couldn't resist, sorry.

A friendly watchmaker might, just might, be able to give you a couple of drops of oil to lube it...or maybe you would have it done by a pro since it has sentimental value?

Cheers,

Bob

[JohnR725]

Usually in a watch that has a little secondhand the wheel is called the fourth wheel. It's a very common thing to break off or bend if you don't know what you're doing when you're removing the secondhand.

Then I've attached a PDF link listing the calibers that bifora has which doesn't appear to be complete. If you go to the cousins website look up the parts for 2025 it also lists the parts for 2030. Hopefully because they interchange perhaps. The third wheel for 2030 with extended pivot has the pivot coming out the back side that a wheel pushes on which is used to drive the sweep second hand pinion. If you go to the parts list it also looks like the 2030 has a small secondhand version in addition to the sweep version which isn't in their caliber list.  So if you're lucky this is what you need Fourth Wheel, Small Seconds, Bifora 2030 224  BIF2030224 Providing it does interchange with the 2025. Then I've attached an image out of the caliber list below showing the 2030 on top which is a similar train layout the 2025. Then the watch below it is a perfect example of third wheel with extended pinion.

Then a helpful hint when assembling a watch is to not put the pallet fork in until almost the very end. It's a common mistake for beginners to reassemble the watch almost in the exact order they disassemble that. If the pallet fork is in it makes it a lot harder to check the wheels to see if they spin.

Then Bob's suggestion now that you know what the watch is even have pictures off the other website or how it goes together finding a friendly watchmaker may also be a good idea in that we still don't know the original reason why the watch was disassembled? Because of the age of the watch probably the oil just gumed up and it could use a nice cleaning.

http://www.bifora-ev.de/Kaliberliste.pdf

[DesertKing]

Hi everyone. I'd like to thank you all for helping me discover the type of watch calibre I have and the sources of valuable information regarding its assembly. As of now I have been able to reassemble my watch. I got very lucky and found an exact 2025 on Ebay. The watch was broken and was being offered as parts. I couldn't refuse and finally got my hands on it. All of the pieces that I needed were there for the taking. Anyways, I successfully re-assembled my watch, mostly by trial and error and was able to put it all back the way it should go. Unfortunately, as other members were right in assuming,I lack the oils and tools necessary to give it a proper servicing. When I wind the watch it makes the distinct "clicks" that wind up watches make when you're cranking them. But sadly that's all it would do. On the plus side, every piece is present and the replacements are working. The bad side, it's not exactly working. It winds and the hour and minute and even the second hands are working fine but the hairspring or part that's round and is semi suspended by a coil doesn't pivot back and forth. Research suggests that the problem is lack of oil, friction and foreign particles. I think I will take it to a horologist tomorrow to have it serviced. Hopefully it just needs the servicing to be fully functional again. 

[bobm12]

Remember the few drops of oils your watchmaker might be able to spare for you so you can do it yourself? It is worth a try...In my mind, and just for the watch to "move" the main parts you need to lube are the pivots on the balance wheel...all that said, dust and impurities as well as lack of oil is not a good thing for a watch...so all the rest indicated places need oil too: in the appropriate type and quantity. It is better to put in too little than too much.

[ricardopalamino]

I'm impressed with the progress you have made up to this point .  I was going to suggest that you look for a donor watch but you have already done so . You are almost to the finish point in completing the necessary repairs and I am looking foreword to you posting the running completed project . I am sure that your Godfather will be very pleased and heart warmed to know that it is running again .