No adjustment left but still running fast.

[Scouseget]

Hi all. I previously posted a question about an obstinate Waltham pocket watch that ran inconsistently, and would stop in certain positions. Based on excellent advice from WRT, I dismantled, changed some components, cleaned, oiled, and reassembled it - again. It now runs in all positions, but runs consistently fast, however there's no further adjustment possible as the 2 timing screws at the balance arms are screwed out to the max, and the regulator is set to the slowest position.

Nothing is catching, I fitted a new hairspring, the balance is true, and has a new staff with the correct amount of end and side shake, the jewels are fine, the mainspring is new and appears to be giving consistent and abundant power to the train, which isn't hanging up anywhere. So what can it be? And more importantly, what can I do to correct this? My thoughts are that perhaps the hairspring isn't correct, though it's new and looked to be identical to the old one.

Should I add heavier timing screws, or add washers underneath the existing ones? Or should I just stuff and mount this pocket watch and put in on display as an object lesson to show that sometimes, despite all out best efforts, not everything we touch is actually completely repairable? Or, as this particular watch was made in 1908, should I be satisfied that it only gains about 30 minutes a day or so and live with it?

As a general question to those of you who are very experienced with watch repairs, and especially if you were a professional watchmaker, did you encounter watches that, despite not being obviously damaged, and despite being able to source any required components, you just couldn't fix to your satisfaction? What do you think was the most common cause for such a condition?

Sorry there's more than one question in this post so if you are only up to answering one of them, please let it be what should I do with this watch to make it run on time?

Thanks

Roger 

[parmenion31]

Hello there ,

by running "fast" what you mean? How much in 24 hours?

[Scouseget]

Probably 40 minutes, though as I've just adjusted it again, it may have changed a bit - but probably not a lot.

[jdm]

3 minutes ago, parmenion31 said:

by running "fast" what you mean? How much in 24 hours?

It's written above:

Quote

should I be satisfied that it only gains about 30 minutes a day or so and live with it?

Which in my opinion can or can't be acceptable depending by various circumstances.

[parmenion31]

Its ptretty much , my bet is on that hair spring.

[parmenion31]

If the hair spring is ok  then you think its safe to add some more weight on the balance ?

[RDabbs]

Any chance it's (slightly) magnetized?

[jguitron]

What's the beat error and amplitude? I've heard of mainspring underpowering resulting in low amp but not the opposite...

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[Scouseget]

Is it slightly magnetized? No, I demagnetized it a couple of times.

What's the beat error and amplitude? The amplitude is a consistent 245 degrees. Beat error is inconsistent and varies between 0.2 ms and about 1.6 ms, with occasional spikes much higher than that. This may be due to either the limitations of the iPhone app I use as my Timegrapher, or as someone mentioned in a previous post, because of the age of this movement - it may not be realistic for it to perform like a, well, Swiss watch.

Also, I just checked the timing and it's gaining about 25 minutes a day, down from previously, which i put down to having adjusted the timing screws out on the balance wheel, which might indicate more of the same, via washers, or heavier screws, might work. 

It's possible that when I purchased the watch via EBay, it had previously been worked over to make it saleable and the repairer had put bogus parts (balance and/or hairspring) in it just to get it to run. 

When you're working on a watch that's actually 108 years old, perhaps a realignment of expectations is required?

[digginstony]

As JDM quite rightly pointed out, it depends on what you intend the usage of the watch and it's general condition.

The beat error info you provided:- is pretty good if not excellent. The amplitude is a little low but I have Walthams lower but still keep excellent time.

Walthams are excellent watches and can be as accurate as any modern mechanical watch. If you want to improve the time keeping, the practical way forward is to weight the balance.

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[Scouseget]

Weigh the balance? This is a new one for me. What will this do if you don't know what it's supposed to weigh, which I don't, and where will we get this information? And if there's a discrepancy, then what is required? Is it weighed with the hairspring and rollers in place or stripped, and with or without the balance staff?

Obviously I don't know anything regarding weighing the balance so please advise.

 

[jdm]

Can you post a picture of the end stud, can you repin the hs an hair longer in it?

[Scouseget]

5 minutes ago, jdm said:

Can you post a picture of the end stud, can you repin the hs an hair longer in it?

Sorry, I don't know what you mean - please clarify.

[jdm]

Just now, Scouseget said:

Sorry, I don't know what you mean - please clarify.

re-pin = pin again. If you notice, the hairspring is pinned in the end stud.

[digginstony]

Weigh the balance? This is a new one for me. What will this do if you don't know what it's supposed to weigh, which I don't, and where will we get this information? And if there's a discrepancy, then what is required? Is it weighed with the hairspring and rollers in place or stripped, and with or without the balance staff?

Obviously I don't know anything regarding weighing the balance so please advise.

 

Hi,

I did say weight the balance not weigh????

What JDM is leading you too:- is to increase the length of the hairspring which will the cause the watch to run slower .

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[digginstony]

re-pin = pin again. If you notice, the hairspring is pinned in the end stud.

Most Walthams I've come across the stud tends to be very near the end coil of the spring. Might have sufficient spring to re-pin ?

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[jdm]

Just now, digginstony said:

Most Walthams I've come across the stud tends to be very near the end coil of the spring. Might have sufficient spring to re-pin ?

That's why I asked for a pic. But the OP can surely judge himself if it's doable.

[JohnR725]

Is this the watch that you talk about in the discussion titled "Timing Adjustment Problem"?

Also is this the same watch that you discussed in this thread titled "Regulator Pins"

The reason why I'm asking the question is originally I was going to ask what was the condition like before? It helps to know the history of the watch for instance the watch was running beautifully you serviced it now it's not running right or the watch arrived broken and are now trying to repair it it helps to know the history to figure out what's going on.

One of the problems with troubleshooting in discussion groups is when you ask a question everyone is specifically trying to answer the exact question you're asking. Here you started off with timing issues did some stuff then you're asking another question timing issues again and conceivably this is all part of the original question plus now we get the bonus of things have been changed adding conceivably new problems.

Then a reminder for American pocket watches they were mass-produced in a factory except. If you watch the Videos on YouTube as they're putting together the watches You will see a lot of hand fitting or simplistically the ability to interchange parts can have issues.

So for balance staff changing is usually variations most common is the pivots size. So one part number several pivots sizes and occasionally variations as they sometimes make modifications over time.

So let's discuss hairsprings and balance wheels. In the modern watchmaking typically the hairspring is vibrated on the balance wheel it's going to work on. This means if you need one or the other it's a balance complete. It's why modern watches never have the hairspring sold separately. American pocket watches have over coils they need to be in a very exacting position so they are premade. This means the balance wheel has to be matched the hairspring. Then there are some other characteristics beyond timing but it sounds like your watches running so we will skip over those.

So to fix the problem let's return some things back to where they should be. Put the regulator at zero and the mean time screws somewhere in the middle. Plus as a reminder for the mean time screws they have a limited amount of adjustment before they become loose.

So now if things are returned back to a zero position how fast are you running?

So as you're running fast we will have to add weight to the balance wheel. Then out of curiosity when you replaced the staff did you remember to poise the balance wheel?  So the most common way to add weight to the balance wheel is with timing washers there's still available show up on eBay from time to time. There used in pairs one on one side of the balance the other on the other. This way you keep the poise of the balance wheel. In the assortment they come as 1, 2, 3 & 4 minutes per day per pair 30 minutes is quite a bit for timing washers. Then remember for the timing washers it may say it's for 16 size typically it says is for 16 and 18 make sure the diameter the washer is the same size or smaller than the screw you put it on. Sometimes physically there too big.

So we are out of the range of timing washers which means you need timing screws available at one time. Now is the time where having a different timing machine/application would be nice. Unfortunately the Chinese machines do not have frequency mode. If you could measure the frequency of the watch this would go a lot faster. So in the absence of a assortment a balance wheel from the same manufacturer of the watch the thread sizes are usually the same just make sure they are when you change the screws though it's conceivably could be different. So a pair of screws remember on opposite sides to keep the Poise and see what happens. It's probably not going to be straightforward sometimes it involves swapping more than one pair are screws to get the right combination.

 

[digginstony]

Is this the watch that you talk about in the discussion titled "Timing Adjustment Problem"?

Also is this the same watch that you discussed in this thread titled "Regulator Pins"

The reason why I'm asking the question is originally I was going to ask what was the condition like before? It helps to know the history of the watch for instance the watch was running beautifully you serviced it now it's not running right or the watch arrived broken and are now trying to repair it it helps to know the history to figure out what's going on.

One of the problems with troubleshooting in discussion groups is when you ask a question everyone is specifically trying to answer the exact question you're asking. Here you started off with timing issues did some stuff then you're asking another question timing issues again and conceivably this is all part of the original question plus now we get the bonus of things have been changed adding conceivably new problems.

Then a reminder for American pocket watches they were mass-produced in a factory except. If you watch the Videos on YouTube as they're putting together the watches You will see a lot of hand fitting or simplistically the ability to interchange parts can have issues.

So for balance staff changing is usually variations most common is the pivots size. So one part number several pivots sizes and occasionally variations as they sometimes make modifications over time.

So let's discuss hairsprings and balance wheels. In the modern watchmaking typically the hairspring is vibrated on the balance wheel it's going to work on. This means if you need one or the other it's a balance complete. It's why modern watches never have the hairspring sold separately. American pocket watches have over coils they need to be in a very exacting position so they are premade. This means the balance wheel has to be matched the hairspring. Then there are some other characteristics beyond timing but it sounds like your watches running so we will skip over those.

So to fix the problem let's return some things back to where they should be. Put the regulator at zero and the mean time screws somewhere in the middle. Plus as a reminder for the mean time screws they have a limited amount of adjustment before they become loose.

So now if things are returned back to a zero position how fast are you running?

So as you're running fast we will have to add weight to the balance wheel. Then out of curiosity when you replaced the staff did you remember to poise the balance wheel?  So the most common way to add weight to the balance wheel is with timing washers there's still available show up on eBay from time to time. There used in pairs one on one side of the balance the other on the other. This way you keep the poise of the balance wheel. In the assortment they come as 1, 2, 3 & 4 minutes per day per pair 30 minutes is quite a bit for timing washers. Then remember for the timing washers it may say it's for 16 size typically it says is for 16 and 18 make sure the diameter the washer is the same size or smaller than the screw you put it on. Sometimes physically there too big.

So we are out of the range of timing washers which means you need timing screws available at one time. Now is the time where having a different timing machine/application would be nice. Unfortunately the Chinese machines do not have frequency mode. If you could measure the frequency of the watch this would go a lot faster. So in the absence of a assortment a balance wheel from the same manufacturer of the watch the thread sizes are usually the same just make sure they are when you change the screws though it's conceivably could be different. So a pair of screws remember on opposite sides to keep the Poise and see what happens. It's probably not going to be straightforward sometimes it involves swapping more than one pair are screws to get the right combination.

 

Great explanation. Believe this watch to be the same as appeared on previous thread. I have previously explained the need to add screws to the balance which seems to have been ignored. Missed the point about zero everything back to as was but surely that's normal practice after servicing and regulating ?

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[digginstony]

Also I believe I made reference to the fact once you add extra screws, the watch may run slow. This is resolved by removing the extra screws and filing metal off the screws, from the top where the slot is. You will not be able to replace screws using a screwdriver. No slots left ! You will need a pin vice with collet.

See photos below. Collet retracted jaws open.

Collet pushed forward jaws closed

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[jdm]

1 minute ago, digginstony said:

Also I believe I made reference to the fact once you add extra screws, the watch may run slow. This is resolved by removing the extra screws and filing metal off the screws, from the top where the slot is.

From my readings, the proper technique to remove metal from a timing screws is using a lather to remove metal from the bottom of the head, near to the threading. That allows to retain the slot as well the visual appearance.

[digginstony]

From my readings, the proper technique to remove metal from a timing screws is using a lather to remove metal from the bottom of the head, near to the threading. That allows to retain the slot as well the visual appearance.

Absolutely correct JDM. But if you don't have a lathe. This is a practical way forward. It works I've used this technique many times ????

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[Scouseget]

3 hours ago, digginstony said:

Great explanation. Believe this watch to be the same as appeared on previous thread. I have previously explained the need to add screws to the balance which seems to have been ignored. Missed the point about zero everything back to as was but surely that's normal practice after servicing and regulating ?

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Actually, I didn't ignore your advice about adding screws but have been struggling to do so for a couple of reasons, namely that to add screws, there is room for these only in places that are used for temperature compensation as in towards the cut end of the balance wheel. There are a couple of screw holes at right angles to the timing screws but everything I read tells me these positions should not be used. Another problem is even getting the screws into the threaded holes because, as you mentioned, a screwdriver doesn't work, and I don't actually have the right size of pin vice. But I will persevere. 

The question then is, where do I add these extra screws; I think I'll be able to overcome the problem of how to install the screws once I know this?

[digginstony]

Let's be practical here ! The best practice is to use a lathe as JDM said. What you need to do is located and fit screws on opposing sides of the balance. See how the watch runs (hopefully) If it runs slow:- file screws down to match each other. They won't be exact and will have a detrimental effect on how the balance is poised but hopefully to no significant effect. Lots of time and patience is required.

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[oldhippy]

If you have enough hairspring you need to let it out, re-pin it and put it in beat. As its one you got from ebay it is possible it has been fitted with the wrong hairspring, or if it is pinned at the very end it has broken.