No adjustment left but still running fast.

[Geo]

Actually the best practice to remove metal from the screws is to use the correct size of timing screw undercutter, not a lathe or a file. This is a hand tool that allows you to very carefully remove tiny amounts af meteo at a time.  Between adding timing washers and/or using an undercutter you should be capable of arriving at a poised balance. 

If you search the net you should be able to pick up the correct tools and washers.

 

[digginstony]

Actually the best practice to remove metal from the screws is to use the correct size of timing screw undercutter, not a lathe or a file. This is a hand tool that allows you to very carefully remove tiny amounts af meteo at a time.  Between adding timing washers and/or using an undercutter you should be capable of arriving at a poised balance. 

If you search the net you should be able to pick up the correct tools and washers.

 

I've never seen these undercutters advertised. Are they still made and who produces them ? I've seen washers on ebay (once) in the last 4 years or so Are they still being manufactured, suitable for Walthams?

As JDM said. A lathe would be a very accurate method.

There may be enough spring to re-pin. Not forgetting it May also require the end coil of the breguet spring to be re-bent to achieve correct oscillation, which is a skilled art in itself.

I think this watch could spend a very long time waiting in the repair box whilst searching for undercutter and washers. I could be wrong.

To reiterated, the method I suggested, works with time and patience but it's not perfect.

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[Geo]

Uncle Larrys has a couple of sets for sale and he is excellent to deal with.

http://www.execulink.com/~lfoord/tools.html

[digginstony]

Uncle Larrys has a couple of sets for sale and he is excellent to deal with.

http://www.execulink.com/~lfoord/tools.html

Hopefully Scouseget will pick up on this. At $25 seems reasonable. Though anything over £15 if coming to UK will require 20% Vat. Vat should not be charged on postage.

Many thanks Geo

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[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Scouseget said:

Actually, I didn't ignore your advice about adding screws but have been struggling to do so for a couple of reasons, namely that to add screws, there is room for these only in places that are used for temperature compensation as in towards the cut end of the balance wheel. There are a couple of screw holes at right angles to the timing screws but everything I read tells me these positions should not be used. Another problem is even getting the screws into the threaded holes because, as you mentioned, a screwdriver doesn't work, and I don't actually have the right size of pin vice. But I will persevere. 

The question then is, where do I add these extra screws; I think I'll be able to overcome the problem of how to install the screws once I know this?

As there's so many answers I haven't read through them all so I'm going to catch up on things as I come to them. I conveniently skipped over temperature compensation all of the screws have to go in a very exact position to maintain temperature compensation. But most of the places today you're going to have your watch the temperature is going to be consistent. Then to write a dissertation on how to adjust the watch in a variety of temperatures would occupy several paragraphs of a book and be way beyond any thing that anyone here cares about. If you do care there's probably a book.

So simplistically we could care less about temperature compensation other then if you're really concerned stay away from the outer end. When the balance wheel is made holes are evenly drilled around the circumference. There is usually always extra holes somewhere. Worst-case you may have to swap screws lighter versus heavier or timing washers to make up differences.

Then a cautionary note in the absence of tools the human hand is wonderful for holding things. Like for instance a balance wheel that you need to remove a screw from. The problem is no matter how careful you are you're going to squeeze the arms together. More than likely are not going to squeeze uniformly you're going to screw up the poise and moving the arms in has a dramatic effect on timekeeping you'll now run very fast. It's why it was very important after restaffing to make sure the balance wheel was actually round. So they make a special tool for holding the balance wheel image attached. Personally I would not have the balance wheel attached is a likelihood of stretching the hairspring and we don't have an infinite supply of hairsprings plus putting hairsprings back is a interesting time-consuming ordeal. So it works much better to remove it from the balance bridge.

So best way to remove timing/balance screws is with a special pin vice. I've seen better examples then the one found at the link below but it will give you an idea. So scroll way down the page past all the other nifty tools become to a nifty yellow box with a really interesting price. Fortunately on eBay other places were used horological tools are sold they just look like tiny pin pinvices they usually go really cheap.

http://www.ofrei.com/page_217.html

 

 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, oldhippy said:

If you have enough hairspring you need to let it out, re-pin it and put it in beat. As its one you got from ebay it is possible it has been fitted with the wrong hairspring, or if it is pinned at the very end it has broken.  

 

On American balance wheel hairsprings like this there is no additional spring. They are permanently pinned in position. On older watches semi-handmade watches quite a few times there is extra spring but not on these.

Then unfortunately there is always the chance that somebody has re-pinned it shorter.

Then anything off eBay everything is possible usually undesirable possibilities. I have a friend who is buying broken watches to fix at least one of them I think became the everything bad the person had went into one watch Sold as unknown condition as opposed to everything evil and bad is in one watch you're never going to fix this.

Then swapping hairsprings becomes challenging unless you read the data book parts book whatever there is additional specifications that apply. So for waltham their hairsprings come in two different type steel and Conal. Then strengths light, medium and heavy. There is a note that you can send your balance to the factory To have it vibrated for you unfortunately the factory went out of business some time ago. So light hairspring is for 10 screw balances. Medium for 12 to 14 screws. Heavy for 16 screws.

So ideally you need to get the right hairspring for your balance wheel and you're still going to have to do some screw swapping adding weight removing weight.

[Scouseget]

Well this has been a very interesting and educational process for me. I learned a lot of stuff I didn't know thanks to all your excellent feedback and suggestions. As I had actually suspected up front, the solution was to add additional weight to the balance wheel, but I never envisaged having to add 6 of them. Obviously these have been placed in less than ideal locations on the rim of the balance wheel, positions that are normally reserved for temperature compensation, and compensations for different positions, however as I will be happy if this watch is accurate in just the dial up position, I will be happy.

As it stands now, with the regulator in the centre position, and the timing screws at the balance arms unscrewed just a couple of turns, it gains just a few seconds an hour, something I will further improve over the next few days.

I'm guessing that this watch, which I bought on EBay, was cobbled together by the seller just to get it in a going condition, irrespective of whether or not the balance/hairspring, etc, were the correct ones for the movement. Perhaps as long as it ticked, he could legitimately state that is was working. Oh well, we live and learn, and I have actually enjoyed this despite the frustration. 

As always, I really appreciate your help with this, and hope that one day I'll be able to reciprocate with some suggestions for someone else's problems, but don't hold you breath waiting for this to happen because i'm a long way from having enough expertise to be able to do this at the moment.

[oldhippy]

Years ago when I was an adviser to an antique shop that started buying and selling clocks the amount of crap I came across which was put together just so it could fetch more money sold as going, even it it only went for a few seconds it would still be classed as going.

[digginstony]

Well this has been a very interesting and educational process for me. I learned a lot of stuff I didn't know thanks to all your excellent feedback and suggestions. As I had actually suspected up front, the solution was to add additional weight to the balance wheel, but I never envisaged having to add 6 of them. Obviously these have been placed in less than ideal locations on the rim of the balance wheel, positions that are normally reserved for temperature compensation, and compensations for different positions, however as I will be happy if this watch is accurate in just the dial up position, I will be happy.

As it stands now, with the regulator in the centre position, and the timing screws at the balance arms unscrewed just a couple of turns, it gains just a few seconds an hour, something I will further improve over the next few days.

I'm guessing that this watch, which I bought on EBay, was cobbled together by the seller just to get it in a going condition, irrespective of whether or not the balance/hairspring, etc, were the correct ones for the movement. Perhaps as long as it ticked, he could legitimately state that is was working. Oh well, we live and learn, and I have actually enjoyed this despite the frustration. 

As always, I really appreciate your help with this, and hope that one day I'll be able to reciprocate with some suggestions for someone else's problems, but don't hold you breath waiting for this to happen because i'm a long way from having enough expertise to be able to do this at the moment.

You've done well. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be too technical with regards temp compensation and the like. Its your watch, play with it as you like. Unless you're a professional selling or repairing don't be frustrated, have fun ! If you get into Walthams and they are addictive, the better buys tend to be from the middle to late 1920s, in my experience. The reason for this is that there's more chance the movement is a "Sleeper " because wrist watches were taking over and these beautiful old pocket watches were being shoved in the cupboard.

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