Elgin Size 0 Still Won't Run

[jdrichard]

So I replaced the mainspring on this Elgin pocket watch (and it was not easy as getting the arbor inside the spring was such a pain) and would it up and it still will not run. The balance and hairspring look good and in fact if I put a little pressure on the outside of the mainspring barrel, with a toothpick, the balance starts to oscillate. I replaced the mainspring in the first place because I thought that due to age it was not providing enough power the gear train. Now I think there must be something else causing too much friction for the power from the mainspring to overpower. Thoughts?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gmoodyii]

I have the same movement that I just rebuilt. Well took apart, cleaned and reassembled. It was running before but not very strong, after my amateur rebuild it is still running weak. Sure this will be a common issue with these watches, awaiting more expert advice.

I have an issue with my stem also, but that will be another post.

[jdrichard]

I have the same movement that I just rebuilt. Well took apart, cleaned and reassembled. It was running before but not very strong, after my amateur rebuild it is still running weak. Sure this will be a common issue with these watches, awaiting more expert advice.

I have an issue with my stem also, but that will be another post.

I made a mistake. It is actually a south bend 0s.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldhippy]

Try this first. Let down the mainspring so that there is no power. Remove the balance complete, pallet bridge and pallets. Now put a little power on and see if it runs through the train. If it doesn't run right down check all the wheels in the train, teeth pinions pivots, stones, bent wheels and end shake. I see with your movement the center wheel top pivot is not jeweled so check the top pivot and hole for wear and the cannon pinon end too and end shake. If everything here is correct look at the barrel teeth and the arbor check for any wear in the top bridge or bottom plate, arbor play in the barrel any type of binding, is the arbor smooth, no signs of wear. I know you said you have a new mainspring, is it the right one, not to high, not rubbing in the barrel or binding. If all this is correct you need to check the pallets do the same here as with the train wheels, make sure the pallet stones are secure and have a good edge on both. Put the pallets back and test with a little power and see if they release, do this all round the escape wheel. If this is working, check the balance, same thing, stones,staff end shake and impulse pin make sure it isn't rough or chipped and that is firm in its fixing. Is the roller good not bent and is that firm and not lose. Is the hairspring good, not bent, tight on the staff, nothing fouling it up. If everything is correct its time to fit the balance and see what happens, you don't need much power to see if it will run. After all that don't forget to oil it correctly. . I think I have covered most. If this still doesn't work get back

[sstakoff]

Just to be certain - are you positive that you did not install the mainspring backwards????

It has been done before!!!

[oldhippy]

18 minutes ago, sstakoff said:

Just to be certain - are you positive that you did not install the mainspring backwards????

It has been done before!!!

If the mainspring was in the wrong way you wouldn't be able to wind it up because the arbor would not attach to the barrel arbor.

[sstakoff]

This is true of course. Reading the original post, are we certain that the spring was actually wound??? When you wound it, were you able to "fully" wind it until it stopped???? If it were in backwards, you might "think" you were winding it when in fact, as oldhippy points out, it was not winding at all. If you really only applied minimal force to the barrel with the toothpick and the watch started to run this could explain the issue. Agreed - it's a long shot.

[jdrichard]

Thanks oldhippy for the very detailed diagnostics. I am going to proceed its your instruction. I have wound the spring with a screwdriver and it does wind and it also releases power when I hold back the click and let it down slowly with my screwdriver. I also took photos of the spring upon removal so I would wind it in the right way. As well. It will not all go together if you put the spring in backwards and snap the arbour in and then close the cover. The 1/4 flat part of the arbor that the ratchet wheel fits on to would not work.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jdrichard]

Wow. Really good advise....back to the bench

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jdrichard]

No one told me about the criticality of the banking pins. Too wide and the balance stalls too narrow and the palate fork gets stuck. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh. Plus my screwdriver slipped when I was letting down the main spring an hour ago and I had to reinstall the arbor in the spring barrel. Man what a pain. So now it is working. I am going to just let it run for a while - see if it keeps going.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sstakoff]

If you're interested in the adjustment of the lever escapement, have a look here:

http://www.thechronometerclub.org/The-Art-and-Craft-of-Watchmaking/3183487

 

 

[oldhippy]

Sorry that's one thing I forgot to mention the banking pins. At the time I didn't think as most banking pins end to be correct unless someone has fiddled with them or have become bent.

[jdrichard]

Sorry that's one thing I forgot to mention the banking pins. At the time I didn't think as most banking pins end to be correct unless someone has fiddled with them or have become bent.

In this case, I think someone evil fiddled with the banking pins. I will let it run over night just to get the lubrication spread (not sure if it matters) and then I will reassemble. I don't think the amplitude is great but I just wanted the heart to beat on this one. [emoji56]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jdrichard]

If you're interested in the adjustment of the lever escapement, have a look here:

http://www.thechronometerclub.org/The-Art-and-Craft-of-Watchmaking/3183487

 

 

Hey thanks for the help. Adjusting pocked watches with dynamic banking pins is new to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[syfre]

15 hours ago, jdrichard said:

I have wound the spring with a screwdriver and it does wind and it also releases power when I hold back the click and let it down slowly with my screwdriver.

Be careful doing that because you can break the screw. 

[jdrichard]

Be careful doing that because you can break the screw. 

Didn't consider that. Thanks, good warning

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jdrichard]

Update. It ran for a few days on one wind. Problem is once I reassembled it with the face and hands etc it stopped running. Seems like friction from the hour and minute gears are causing the problem. Not sure what to do next... I usually never give up when the watch has a chance:(

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sstakoff]

Was the watch cased when you ran it??? If not, are you certain that the keyless work was disengaged??

If the watch is a "negative set", then when out of the case the watch will be in time setting position which will likely cause the watch to stop. Check on the side of the movement, next to where the stem enters - there may be a small catch there that you can pull partially out. This will engage the winding mechanism - and relieving the tension of the keyless work. Make sense?

[sstakoff]

Also - did you reinstall the dial washer on the hour wheel?

[syfre]

Check the hands

[jdrichard]

Tonight when I get home from my day job, I will again dig in to the problem

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jdrichard]

Still will not run. I still think there is drag on the dial side somehow? The gear train runs free without the balance attached and when I assembled the balance and adjusted the banking pins I got it running, mind you with poor amplitude. Then when I put the dial back together...would not run. However, if I push the third wheel just a bit, away it goes. Ahhhh

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldhippy]

I think now we need to go about this bit by bit. You say when the hands and dial are fitted it stops. So do this, remove the dial and hands and just put the hour hand on and test, if all is ok put the minute hand on and test, if it has a seconds hand that should be next if no hand put the dial on and make sure you have a good fitting washer that goes over the hour wheel, don't case up the movement and don't screw the dial to the movement, just place the dial on the movement. Then get back if all is ok.

[jdrichard]

I think now we need to go about this bit by bit. You say when the hands and dial are fitted it stops. So do this, remove the dial and hands and just put the hour hand on and test, if all is ok put the minute hand on and test, if it has a seconds hand that should be next if no hand put the dial on and make sure you have a good fitting washer that goes over the hour wheel, don't case up the movement and don't screw the dial to the movement, just place the dial on the movement. Then get back if all is ok.

Will get back. At work:)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vinn3]

Quote

 

I like that idea of running the gear train un regulated ( balance and fork out ).  its easer to take the spring barrel out again ,  to re check the main spring.  vinn