Balance becomes sticky when interacting with pallet fork

[Edifred]

I've been trying to save this pocket watch which was in a bit of a state when I got it. All parts cleaned, oiled and gresed. Everyting works well with nice power at the pallet fork. When installed on its own the balance spins nicely although comes to a very slighty sticky stop but I have had much worse that still letes the movement work.. I have inspected the jewels (cap jewel for one balance pivot is missing) and all seems fine.

When installing the balance it does move the fork left to right. But it is sticky and will not run. There is friction somewhere but I have spent hours trying to find it. note the hair spring is a bit messed up. I have straightened it as best as I can and as I say when installed on its own the balance spins nicely. Only when it meets the fork does it seem to 'gum up'.

Thoughts appreciated!

[Nucejoe]

Hi there, 

 Check if roller  rubs on fork horns, in which case it should run OK if  the movement is flipped upside down.

Check if the guard pin rubs on roller.

Make sure balance rim doesn't rub on fork cock.

Good luck.

[nevenbekriev]

1. Impulse jewel is not in plase, move it down and glue it with shellak.

2. Demagnetize the whole balance and the lever. It is of significant importance when the roller and the fork both are made of steel. Here the guard pin is not separate part, it is part of the fork which can not be regulated and should be OK if all is original.

Edited March 2 by nevenbekriev

[HectorLooi]

4 hours ago, Edifred said:

I have inspected the jewels (cap jewel for one balance pivot is missing) and all seems fine

How can this be fine?

[watchweasol]

Hi if you are missing a cap jewel the balance end shake is effected and un less rectified will have an adverse effect on the movement ie. If the watch is placed in a position with the missing cap jewel the staff shoulders can rub on the setting and cause all manner of problems.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

How can this be fine?

I guess just  luck.

The fork horn  might be dirty, clean with a soft  tooth brush in lighter fluid. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2 by Nucejoe

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I guess just  luck.

The fork horn  might be dirty, clean with a soft  tooth brush in lighter fluid. 

 

 

 

 

The op has inspected the jewels and all seems fine. Except he has a cap jewel missing. I think maybe his "fine" is somewhat different to our fine lol. For things to be more fine that cap jewel needs to be not missing.  Or am i missing something, possibly some diplomacy

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The op has inspected the jewels and all seems fine. Except he has a cap jewel missing. I think maybe his "fine" is somewhat different to our fine lol. For things to be more fine that cap jewel needs to be not missing.  Or am i missing something, possibly some diplomacy

Hi matey, 

 As soon as the OP flips the movement upside down, all questions in regard to the effect of a missing cap stone, is answered.

There  , however,  remains the point made earlier about  pivot shoulder rubbing on the setting which depends on what side is up what down and the side that still has cap stone and pivot lenIgth.

FYI, I am 100% a meat & potato man, no diplomacy.

Rgds

Edited March 3 by Nucejoe

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

FYI , I am 100% a meat and potato man, no diplomacy.

 

Haha do we both shoot from the hip ? 

[nevenbekriev]

OP says that htre balance oscillates OK. It is possible that the missing cap stone is 'replaced' by piece of main spring under the stone plate. It is just a filling that i have...

[Neverenoughwatches]

18 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

OP says that htre balance oscillates OK. It is possible that the missing cap stone is 'replaced' by piece of main spring under the stone plate. It is just a filling that i have...

Thats an interesting solution to a missing cap jewel.  I've seen that recently, discovered under a balance top plate, maybe wasn't here on our forum.  If its a filling you have Nev i think you should speak to HectorLooi,  he used to be a dentist

Edited March 3 by Neverenoughwatches

[nickelsilver]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats an interesting solution to a missing cap jewel.  I've seen that recently, discovered under a balance top plate, maybe wasn't here on our forum.  If its a filling you have Nev i think you should speak to HectorLooi,  he used to be a dentist

Had a Patek in with the cap jewel glued in place, missing the (Kif) hole jewel. So the staff was running on the diameter that contacts the setting in event of a shock- but it was actually running!

 

Have definitely seen bits of mainspring clamped down to make up for a broken or missing cap jewel too.

[Nucejoe]

32 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Have definitely seen bits of mainspring clamped down to make up for a broken or missing cap jewel too.

I have seen an army of baby cock roaches  run every which way out of a pocket watch as soon as  got the backplate opened. 

Nickelsilver,  a day will come, I have success  making you laugh.

Rgds

Edited March 3 by Nucejoe

[Neverenoughwatches]

31 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I have seen an army of baby cock roaches  run every which way out of a pocket watch as soon as  got the backplate opened. 

Nickelsilver,  a day will come, I have success  making you laugh.

Rgds

Haha, its not a myth Joe, Nicklesilver has pressed that laughing face icon . He might have even laughed at me once ( inside ) . Its making John laugh that's my nemesis , it will happen one day even if i have to go to seattle and beat it out of him

[nevenbekriev]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats an interesting solution to a missing cap jewel.  I've seen that recently, discovered under a balance top plate, maybe wasn't here on our forum.  If its a filling you have Nev i think you should speak to HectorLooi,  he used to be a dentist

See, my wife is a doctor, and she is willing to hear about all my feelings... But some of them should be never shared.

About the pieces of springs - it is a common solution used by many watchmakers in the past. And the results are not bad at all, especially when this is the dial side cap stone. I use to call this side 'down' or 'bottom' side of the balance or movement. There are watches made with such plate made entirely of steel instead of jeweled plate on the dial side. A pocket watch is not expected to work in dial down position for a long time.

Edited March 3 by nevenbekriev

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

See, my wife is a doctor, and she is willing to hear about all my feelings... But some of them should be never shared.

I can't quite make out if that's sarcasm or not Nev .  And speaking of dentists i bought some of the seperating disks your were talking about a few weeks ago. brilliant idea and so much cheaper and easier to use than slotting files. Great tip.

Edited March 3 by Neverenoughwatches

[nevenbekriev]

I ment that my feeings sometimes frighten myself, nothing more.

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

I ment that my feeings sometimes frighten myself, nothing more.

Ok Nev, i think maybe the dentist filling joke went right over your head

[nevenbekriev]

This disks can be used to entyrely form and grind figure springs and setting lever springs of hardened steel

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ok Nev, i think maybe the dentist filling joke went right over your head

I'm not sure if I got it, what i thought is that I may be need to share my feeligs with some psychologist, but if we have not one in the group, then I can use the dentist...

A, now i see that i have typed 'filling' instead feeling. This is my bloody english...

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

now i see that i have typed 'filling' instead feeling. This is my bloody english...

Haha that was it Nev, we got there in the end

19 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

This disks can be used to entyrely form and grind figure springs and setting lever springs of hardened steel

They're brill Nev, 0.2mm diamond disks they work great with my new little milling machine. I paid less than £1 each, what is your currency ?

[nevenbekriev]

My currency is BGN (Bulgarian Lev), which is fasten to EUR, so 1EUR = 2BGN

I am afraid we have stollen the conversation away from the OP problem...

[Jon]

13 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

They're brill Nev, 0.2mm diamond disks they work great with my new little milling machine. I paid less than £1 each, what is your currency ?

Could you let me know where to get them? I use slotting files, but always on the lookout for alternatives that work.

Apologies if I've taken this thread off on a tangent! 

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Had a Patek in with the cap jewel glued in place, missing the (Kif) hole jewel. So the staff was running on the diameter that contacts the setting in event of a shock- but it was actually running!

I've had the same on my bench, where the escape wheel cap was shellacked into place and it ran pretty damn well, to be honest

Edited March 3 by Jon

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, Jon said:

Could you let me know where to get them? I use slotting files, but always on the lookout for alternatives that work.

Theres a few different types , i went for 19mm solid disk, the diamond continues upto and around the edge of the disk. I'm guessing the grit is around 200ish , a bit rougher than i would have liked. I removed the slot from a small screw and had it cut back in by hand within a couple of minutes of fettling. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/404219193851?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=qx1zhgfvseo&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=tBiLZaCfRb2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its making John laugh that's my nemesis.

Ya John is a tough one too.

33 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

My currency is BGN (Bulgarian Lev), which is fasten to EUR, so 1EUR = 2BGN

I am afraid we have stollen the conversation away from the OP problem...

Agree we hijacked this thread.

 I visited Bulgaria 32 years ago, good ice cream,  brought back a few little and cute levas , bought an overcoat for $11، whose price tag I know was $240 in the US. Cheap boose and Doctors visited patient for free.

Doubt if it still as inexpensive nowadays.

Not to mention that piece of mainspring as cap stone, is watch destruction.

Rgds

[Edifred]

To be clear, I meant the hole jewels looked fine. Clealry a missing cap jewel is not fine!