How to keep track of many different screws ....... ?

[Endeavor]

Okay, a new problem for me.

Normally, with a complicated movement like an older chronograph, I replace the screw(s) on the same spot after I've removed the part. This, to avoid a puzzle later if there are many different types of screws.

However, with my new ultra-sonic, I think it's better to remove all the screws.

Currently an Omega 861 is programmed to have an ultra-sonic bath and it has no less than 17 different types of screws. Some are clearly different, most are pretty similar but not quite. All the screws are now sorted in little paper-bags, with their respective identification numbers written of them.

Storing these screws in little paper bags was a tedious job and I don't feel it's a 100% safe method.

There must be another, more simple way to store and keep track of all those different screws.

Please share your tips, tricks and materials used  

 

Edited January 12, 2024 by Endeavor

[eccentric59]

What I do is keep screws with the parts they were attached to in the trays. When disassembly is completed I take a picture of the trays before cleaning. Something like this 7750 I'm working on now.

I'll put the parts but not the screws through the cleaner and then put the clean parts back in the same slot in the tray, with their original screws. Those little orange triangles help me keep everything indexed. Finally, as I am reassembling, I'll clean the screws manually if needed. The shouldered screws or reverse threaded screws are obvious, and plate screws are usually all the same size/thread, but you have to be careful with levers and springs which might have similar heads and/or threads, but be different lengths. Those I make sure are in separate trays.

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 1/12/2024 at 8:33 PM, eccentric59 said:

What I do is keep screws with the parts they were attached to in the trays. When disassembly is completed I take a picture of the trays before cleaning. Something like this 7750 I'm working on now.

I'll put the parts but not the screws through the cleaner and then put the clean parts back in the same slot in the tray, with their original screws. Those little orange triangles help me keep everything indexed. Finally, as I am reassembling, I'll clean the screws manually if needed. The shouldered screws or reverse threaded screws are obvious, and plate screws are usually all the same size/thread, but you have to be careful with levers and springs which might have similar heads and/or threads, but be different lengths. Those I make sure are in separate trays.

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Funny great minds think alike , exactly the same way for me. I never put screws in a machine cleaner, i dont feel its necessary to clean them this way. Its good to learn the various different types of screw ( fried's books have a good section on this ) and the reasons why a screw has it's particular design or length. If the screw's use is not obvious or are very similar then i also photo the part's and screw's position's in a tray clean the parts, while leaving the screws where they are then return the cleaned parts back to their positions. Manually clean the scews for each part it's reassembled.

[RichardHarris123]

I leave them in the parts tray, clean them, put them in a  clean parts tray, and then wipe it out, I  now have a clean parts tray.  Rinse and repeat. 

[VWatchie]

For a calibre I haven't worked on before I take macro images of the screws together with the parts they are holding. Once out of the cleaning machine, I sort them by appearance into the parts tray as illustrated in the image. For a normal automatic or manually wound movement with only a date complication, there are only about 4 or 5 different types of screws, so no big deal, but perhaps not very practical for a chronograph!?

Not cleaning and inspecting the screws I would personally consider to be a service error.

[Jon]

If I'm unfamiliar with a particular movement I will do as others have suggested and take photos of those screws with their respective parts.

I always clean screws through the cleaning machine, as this gives the screws and the holes in the bridges and main-plate a really good clean as well. It also makes sure any brass fillings and crud are removed in the process. You can save some time sorting the screws out by putting all the keyless work smaller parts in a mini basket together with the screws. All the bridge screws go together in another mini basket and maybe the pallet bridge screws in with them, as they will be very different to bridge screws. barrel bridge furniture and screws are all kept together (crown, ratchet and click screws) They are all different lengths. The crown screw will always be shorter than the ratchet screw, as well as being a left-hand thread, and generally, but not always the click will be the smallest. I use four or five mini baskets and keep the screws in one of the baskets with the respective parts where the screws are from, so it isn't a crap shoot when removing them. Even working on a Rolex automatic this method works very well. Working on a 7750 is even easier, as the screws are so different and most are the same type as I have shown in this slide from one of my lessons. With the 7750 all the screws can go in just one basket. Once this discipline has been done several times, it becomes quite natural to know what goes where. You may get the odd one out of place, but not often. Cleaning the screws and the bridges and main-plate and bridges is important for the reason I have already stated, although some may not think so. Watchmaking teaching discipline, rather than the easier softer option, but that only comes with practice, knowledge, and then wisdom from the previous two.

[Endeavor]

Thanks for your suggestions so far

Obviously I like to clean the screws in the ultra-sonic too and since they are now sorted & identified, I may take pictures of them next to some kind of known reference. It becomes easier when one has worked on a particular movement more often, like the 7750, but this 861 is not my daily exercise.

Some screw look quite similar, but one type has a slightly doomed head, others have the same size heads but are flat. This is even not recognizable on the small silhouettes given in the service manual.

I haven't worked on a Landeron for some time, but I do remember that they have a nice selection of screws too. As said, so far it hasn't been a problem, but now with the ultra-sonic machine I like to do it different.

Maybe it may not be such a problem, if I lay them out (before mixing ) and closely compare/ examen the different types. Perhaps, just like Jon says, a pattern starts to emerge or maybe I may be able to identify each and every type of screw.....

Edited January 13, 2024 by Endeavor

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 1/12/2024 at 9:29 PM, RichardHarris123 said:

I leave them in the parts tray, clean them, put them in a  clean parts tray, and then wipe it out, I  now have a clean parts tray.  Rinse and repeat. 

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Probably a good idea Richard, cross contamination ? With heavily soiled parts. Good policy to peg and pre-clean anything particular dirty in denatured alcohol barring anything that has adhesive on it.

  On 1/12/2024 at 11:07 PM, VWatchie said:

For a calibre I haven't worked on before I take macro images of the screws together with the parts they are holding. 

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i like that macro photos, thats an extra step up from standard picures, creating an identity parade of screws. There will come a time when you want to rely on your own recognition of the correct screws though whenever that may be.

[Endeavor]

I did an attempt to catalogue the 861 different screw types ......

Not such an easy and cute line-up as in @Jon picture above.

Still not sure if pouring them in one basket is such a brilliant idea

 

[Jon]

  On 1/13/2024 at 1:16 PM, Endeavor said:

Still not sure if pouring them in one basket is such a brilliant idea

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Probably not in this case. That'll be a world full of pain! I suppose if you do that particular movement several times, you will get used to what goes where. What I always say to my students is, 'Don't always assume what you find is meant to be there', so sometimes you'll find a screw has been replaced with a thread that fits, but a profile unlike anything else because it is a replacement for what was lost, which makes identifying the screw from a profile pic nigh on impossible!

[LittleWatchShop]

I never clean the screws unless there is an obvious reason to do so.

I make my own multi-section parts tray and the screws go in the compartment with their associated part.  Once fully disassembled, I take a picture.

After cleaning, I put the parts in their compartment where their happy little screws reside.

Done

Edited January 13, 2024 by LittleWatchShop

[Endeavor]

  On 1/13/2024 at 5:30 PM, Jon said:

Don't always assume what you find is meant to be there', so sometimes you'll find a screw has been replaced with a thread that fits, but a profile unlike anything else because it is a replacement for what was lost, which makes identifying the screw from a profile pic nigh on impossible!

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Unless the highly reputable "watchmaker" in the 1980's (the one who left a broken 2544 screw behind) mixed up some screws, I'm the only one who has been working on this movement after him. Currently all the screws are still sorted in the paper-bags and I may clean them, one-by-one, separately.

With movements like these, there is clearly not an easy answer to my initial question.

 

Edited January 13, 2024 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

One way of cleaning the screws is by hand. While the movement is being cleaned in the watch cleaning machine. If you have made a note of what goes where, clean the screws in some Ronsonol lighter fluid, you need a small pot with a screw lid, fiberglass scratch brush a pair of tweezers some tissue paper and your bench blower. Its time consuming but you can't go wrong, you can even take a photo or two to help you, You will find after repairing a few complicated movements you will soon learn about the screws. My master told me to learn it this way but without a camera. Hope it helps. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 1/14/2024 at 8:28 AM, oldhippy said:

One way of cleaning the screws is by hand. While the movement is being cleaned in the watch cleaning machine. If you have made a note of what goes where, clean the screws in some Ronsonol lighter fluid, you need a small pot with a screw lid, fiberglass scratch brush a pair of tweezers some tissue paper and your bench blower. Its time consuming but you can't go wrong, you can even take a photo or two to help you, You will find after repairing a few complicated movements you will soon learn about the screws. My master told me to learn it this way but without a camera. Hope it helps. 

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I have found this way of being upclose and personal with screws has helped me to recognise their use .

[spectre6000]

If I get one like that, I break it up into subsystems, and clean in multiple batches. I.e., for a chronograph, the actuating levers all get cleaned with their associated screws, then the chrono bridges/wheels and their screws, etc. As the movement comes apart, I put everything into little aluminum canisters with glass lids (the lids keep desk bumps from being catastrophic, the glass is occasionally nice to have as a known flat and clean surface), and clean as many or few canisters at a time as I feel my feeble brain can handle. A chronograph with lots of different screws would likely take up a couple of trays, and with 3X 5 minute US sessions, take quite a while.

[VWatchie]

  On 1/13/2024 at 10:42 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

There will come a time when you want to rely on your own recognition of the correct screws though whenever that may be.

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It will usually come after you've serviced the same or a similar calibre a few times, but getting close and personal with the screws using a macro lens the first time you see them is a time saver. We are in an unusually conservative industry but I don't mind using modern aids. Call me crazy, but it even happens that I remove screws with the help of Rodico, and use magnifying glasses rather than watchmakers' loupes! Please don't tell anyone! 

Kalle Slaap published a rather interesting section about screws in one of his videos where he shows how you can determine where a screw should go just based on its appearance. See if I can find it... Yes, here it is!

There's certainly more to screws than one might think at first.

[Endeavor]

  On 1/14/2024 at 4:18 PM, VWatchie said:

Kalle Slaap published a rather interesting section about screws in one of his videos where he shows how you can determine where a screw should go just based on its appearance.

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Very interesting info, thanks a lot !

Now, looking at all the individual screws while cleaning them, I noticed that the 1980's Highly Reputable "watch-maker" didn't only sheared off a 2544 screw, but also changed one (probably lost) bridge screw (2351) out for a "look-alike". For sure, together with the experience I've had with the "official" service of my Rolex, I'm now fully done with those "in house" watch-makers.

I'm sure there are some good, but finding them however, could be very costly.

Edited January 14, 2024 by Endeavor

[rehajm]

Simple timekeepers get a single photo layout with the screws next to their associated parts. I still take an extra photo of any placements that are extraordinary, like a short bridge screw. For chronos I like the Lovick method- the screws are screwed back in their place on the plate during disassembly then go into the cleaning machine. 

Most of the movements with old organic oils I encounter almost always have screws covered in gunk so sometimes I pre clean as I go before screwing them back into the plate...

[Endeavor]

  On 1/15/2024 at 12:52 PM, rehajm said:

For chronos I like the Lovick method

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I don't think it's a specific "Lovick-method", but I get your drift. This method is what I've been doing so far, before the arrival of the ultra-sonic cleaner. Another one of my concerns, next to proper cleaning, is that some screws may vibrate out. As you may have noticed now, this 861 is littered with one-off screws, each having their own specific place.

It would be very nice however, if one could leave them safely in situ  (without the risk of vibrating out) and get them properly cleaned & fully dried too

This time, I hand cleaned all the screws and they are all sorted / numbered & stored in small paper-bags. A cumbersome job, so I was hoping somebody had a smarter idea ....

Edited January 15, 2024 by Endeavor

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 1/15/2024 at 12:52 PM, rehajm said:

I like the Lovick method- the screws are screwed back in their place on the plate during disassembly then go into the cleaning machine. 

 

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i dont see how this way properly cleans out the threads of the screws or the screw holes. Even with a hand pre clean the threaded hole will release more trapped debris if the hole is empty during the ultrasonic clean.

Edited January 15, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[rehajm]

  On 1/15/2024 at 3:35 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

i dont see how this way properly cleans out the threads of the screws or the screw holes. Even with a hand pre clean the threaded hole will release more trapped debris if the hole is empty during the ultrasonic clean.

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I can only report I didn't find the results to be unsatisfactory but YMMV. One particular Breitling was caked with that gray mix of old oil and old debris, so I did this: during disassembly screws got a dunk in ronsonol with the blower, peg the holes, then screws back on the plate. Time consuming but not more time and less risk than photos and cataloging all the screws, at least for me. I also use a Pearl machine with L&R for parts, not ultrasonic. I didn't see unusual hygiene issues under the microscope during pre/ assembly but what do I know?

Do watch screws in their threaded plate holes make a waterprooof seal? If so I need to rethink my plumbing strategy...

 

Edited January 15, 2024 by rehajm

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 1/15/2024 at 5:24 PM, rehajm said:

Do watch screws in their threaded plate holes make a waterprooof seal? If so I need to rethink my plumbing strategy...

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I doubt it , but larger bits of oil and debris might get trapped between the two combined threads and not washed through ? Or possibly pushed out during unscrewing and screwing ? It just seems to make sense to me to have a completely free screwhole for the cleaner to get in there and do its job. Screw threads can be handled quite easily with a small stiff bristled brush, i justed like the idea when i started of getting a good look at the screws while i was cleaning them to help recognise what they are for, now it has become a habit. Its what works for each person, if you've tried it and never had a problem you tend to stick with it until you do have a problem. 

  On 1/15/2024 at 5:24 PM, rehajm said:

didn't see unusual hygiene issues under the microscope during pre/ assembly but what do I know?

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Actually reading again my wording might have come across wrong, i completely apologise if it did. I think i rushed my reply ( my daughter's 30th birthday today ) without realising how it might be perceived . If it offended in anyway then i do apologise for that, my turn to sit cross-legged in the naughty corner .

[rehajm]

  On 1/15/2024 at 11:08 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Actually reading again my wording might have come across wrong

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…not from my pov- you're constructive as always and I’m interested in how you and others are addressing this issue. Cheers…

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 1/16/2024 at 1:45 AM, rehajm said:

…not from my pov- you're constructive as always and I’m interested in how you and others are addressing this issue. Cheers…

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I picked up on the " what do i know " comment and thought i might have offended so i had to check myself. As long as you're ok thats all I'm bothered about.

[Waggy]

Going against the trend here as I do tend to clean the screws etc along with the rest of the components, but not for any particular reason, just hadn't given it much thought. I segregate my components in my parts tray as I am disassembling the watch much the same as discussed above. Then I place all large components (eg main plate) in the main wash baskets of the watch cleaning machine. However, I put any small parts in those little mesh baskets, sometimes up to 6-7 small baskets, some with only 2 screws in. So I know which basket goes with each slot on the parts tray I make sure I place in a 'clue part' for example the escape wheel, instead of putting it in the main wash basket i include it in the small parts basket, then I know all the small screws and doodads in that basket are part of the escape mechanism. Similarly I may use the sliding pinion as my 'clue part' to flag the small parts in that basket as being part of the keyless works etc. Not sure where I got this from, just something I started doing and it seems to work.

Edited January 16, 2024 by Waggy