Help with trouble shooting

[nevenbekriev]

You amplitude is about 135 degr.

It is funny how today’s people rely on stupid machines as timegraphers to show them amplitude and beat error. Is it normal? I mean, how they lived before the WW2, for example?

Especially when balance is with 2 arms/spokes, the first thing one will see when observing a watch working, is the amplitude and correctness of the zero position of the balance. No need to use timegraphers for this, like someone blind asking someone deаf...

Now, there is a picture where timegrapher shows 286 with +737, was it real? If so, then You must look carefully on the hairspring and try to understand where it touches or rubs.

I wonder too, if this ‘NOS’ balance is couple with the hairspring, and seeing how the roller is placed, I am in doubt.

[Nilbobaggins]

Okay, my two best guesses then would be:

1. It is not 100% demagnetized. I have a cheap demagnetizer which potentially isn't good enough? The solution would of course be to buy a new one... Does anyone have any tricks to check if the movement/hairspring still is magnetized?

2. Due to the regulator arm not beeing correctly seated, the hairspring might have become slightly "oval". If this would be the case, how could I fix it? Or should I try to find (another) new balance?

Except for the beat error, I can't think of any other problems it could have? What do you think? When the timegrapher reading showed the "best" time (ca 160 s/day and ca 2 ms beat error), the hairspring wasn't seated correctly between the pins. Instead is was seated inside the pins.  

[tomh207]

I have used an app called Lepsi on my iPad/iPhone to test for magnetism, worth a look and it’s free.

 

Tom

[Nilbobaggins]

6 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

I have used an app called Lepsi on my iPad/iPhone to test for magnetism, worth a look and it’s free.

 

Tom

How is your experience with it?

I will try it out.

[tomh207]

Ok so far, I have been able to magnetise/demagnetised a couple of scrap movements and it detected both states fine. You need something magnetic to set it up and find the magnetometer on your device but it’s simple to setup and use.

 

Tom

https://download.cnet.com/lepsi-watch-magnetism/3000-31713_4-78588377.html

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by tomh207
To add link

[Waggy]

2 minutes ago, Nilbobaggins said:

How is your experience with it?

I will try it out.

For android there is "My magnetic instrument"

I don't pay any attention to the number, just waft it over the watch and if needle jumps there is magnetism, if it stays (relatively) still there isn't

 

[Nucejoe]

 Would someome tell if it was a jif a or a vid OP posted, did it show one swing or two.

Did 288 ampl drop back to 140 , Timegrapher  doesn't feel good, needs pepto bismo.

Some folks use a compass to detect magnetism.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Nucejoe

[nevenbekriev]

Just forget about hairspring magnetization. In this movement there is much that can get magnetized, but not the hairspring. Hairsprings that can get magnetized, made of steel, were used long time ago, with bimetallic compensating balances for example. But not after WW2.

Something else: You best timegrapher reading is actually the one with 286 degr. amplitude. That’s why I said I doubt that the balance/hairspring are couple, as there the timing error was more than 700 s/day.

What You need to do is find how and where the hairspring now touches/rubs. This could be the balance arms or the cock, the hairspring may be not in plane that is parallel to the movement. May be in rest position it doesn’t touch anything, but when balance turned to 90 degr. for example.

Please, do the free oscillations test – remove the lever and with the balance in place, turn the balance to 180 degr. and release it, then count the number of free oscillations to the full stop. Here, as with the amplitude, one oscillation is swing to the left +swing to the right, so You must count only swinging to the one direction, or just the expandings  of the hairspring. The good result is about 100 – then we will know the balance, bearings/pivots, hairspring – all OK.

[Nilbobaggins]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 Would someome tell if it was a jif a or a vid OP posted, did it show one swing or two.

Did 288 ampl drop back to 140 , Timegrapher  doesn't feel good, needs pepto bismo.

Some folks use a compass to detect magnetism.

Tbh, I think that the 288 ampl was some kind of misreading.. 140 seems more reasonable (after understanding the meaning of amplitude :))

The youtube-links are basic iphone slow-motion videos (through a loupe).

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Just forget about hairspring magnetization. In this movement there is much that can get magnetized, but not the hairspring. Hairsprings that can get magnetized, made of steel, were used long time ago, with bimetallic compensating balances for example. But not after WW2.

Something else: You best timegrapher reading is actually the one with 286 degr. amplitude. That’s why I said I doubt that the balance/hairspring are couple, as there the timing error was more than 700 s/day.

What You need to do is find how and where the hairspring now touches/rubs. This could be the balance arms or the cock, the hairspring may be not in plane that is parallel to the movement. May be in rest position it doesn’t touch anything, but when balance turned to 90 degr. for example.

Please, do the free oscillations test – remove the lever and with the balance in place, turn the balance to 180 degr. and release it, then count the number of free oscillations to the full stop. Here, as with the amplitude, one oscillation is swing to the left +swing to the right, so You must count only swinging to the one direction, or just the expandings  of the hairspring. The good result is about 100 – then we will know the balance, bearings/pivots, hairspring – all OK.

Thanks for some great tips, I will check later this afternoon!

Just to clarify, do you mean that a good result would be 100 degrees or 100 oscillations (seems very much?)

 

Thanks once again 

[mikepilk]

My test for a freely swinging balance is, remove the pallet, give the balance a strong blast with a puffer. It should still be swinging after 30 seconds.

[JohnR725]

On 11/12/2023 at 8:41 AM, Nilbobaggins said:

Is it worth it to tackle the beat error?

I think you should stop trying to please the timing machine.

On 11/12/2023 at 7:53 AM, Nilbobaggins said:

Girard Perregaux Gyromatic

I don't suppose you have a model number?

11 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

that's 135 degrees of amplitude, which matches what he's seeing on the timegrapher. The video he posted bears that out as well.

One of the interesting problems with timing machines is if the amplitude is too low a timing machine will often read the wrong part of the waveform and give you a really nice happy number. If the amplitude is too low everything gets magnified like beat error becomes extremely bad when it may be isn't.

You have to be careful when you're interpreting the timing machine graphical display has to look somewhat decent. The numbers should agree with the graphical display and visually that should agree with what you're seeing on the timing machine then the timing machine becomes reliable. When you have a seemingly random dots bizarre patterns and other stuff the timing machine numbers tend to be worthless. So basically the timing machine is telling you it's having a problem your watch is having a problem as opposed to it's an exact science of my watches doing exactly this the timing machine is just telling you you have a problem.

If you're concerned about the beat error but the power down and visually look at it looks like give a movable stud you should build put it exactly where it's supposed to be? Also out of curiosity how did you lubricate the escapement and the rest of the watch .

[Jon]

On 11/12/2023 at 3:53 PM, Nilbobaggins said:

I am fairly new to watchrepair, having successfully ”repaired” 5-6 watches. I am currently working on a faulty Girard Perregaux Gyromatic and ran into a broken balance for the first time. I ordered a new one (complete balance) but probably didn’t install it perfectly. 
Does any one know just by the chaos of the timegrapher what the problem could be?

Have you serviced this watch movement after fully disassembling everything?

Have you checked for any chips or damage on the pallet jewels and they have a good depth of 'lock' with escape wheel teeth?

Have you checked that the impulse jewel isn't loose or not straight or chipped?

Have you checked that the notch of the pallet fork isn't damaged or badly worn?

Have you replaced the mainspring with a new one? Trying to diagnose why a movement has a low amplitude when the mainspring hasn't been replaced is a pointless exercise!

Did you check the chaton jewel isn't badly damaged or chipped, because you said there was a broken balance? I'm assuming it was a broken staff? The breaking of the staff sometimes damages the chaton it was spinning in.

Did you remove the wheel over third? That's the wheel that is staked onto the extended third wheel arbor and when you checked the freedom of the wheel train with the wheel over third removed, did you look from the side at that extended third wheel arbor to ensure it was spinning without any wobble?

Have you checked after replacing the movement with another balance that the balance end-shake is good? For this movement, it should be about 0.02 mm to 0.04 mm.

Is the hairspring touching the boot? Does the hairspring have room to breathe between the curb pin and boot?

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Would someome tell if it was a jif a or a vid OP posted, did it show one swing or two.

Did 288 ampl drop back to 140 , Timegrapher  doesn't feel good, needs pepto bismo.

Some folks use a compass to detect magnetism.

Video Joe

[Nilbobaggins]

First of all, you guys are amazing! The abundance of tips you provide is worth a lot, thanks!

I will try to answer as many questions as possible:

55 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I think you should stop trying to please the timing machine.

I don't suppose you have a model number?

One of the interesting problems with timing machines is if the amplitude is too low a timing machine will often read the wrong part of the waveform and give you a really nice happy number. If the amplitude is too low everything gets magnified like beat error becomes extremely bad when it may be isn't.

You have to be careful when you're interpreting the timing machine graphical display has to look somewhat decent. The numbers should agree with the graphical display and visually that should agree with what you're seeing on the timing machine then the timing machine becomes reliable. When you have a seemingly random dots bizarre patterns and other stuff the timing machine numbers tend to be worthless. So basically the timing machine is telling you it's having a problem your watch is having a problem as opposed to it's an exact science of my watches doing exactly this the timing machine is just telling you you have a problem.

If you're concerned about the beat error but the power down and visually look at it looks like give a movable stud you should build put it exactly where it's supposed to be? Also out of curiosity how did you lubricate the escapement and the rest of the watch .

Don't have the reference number for the watch, movement is a cal 21.19.

Fair point regarding the time-grapher! Will keep in mind.

I have used Moebius D-5; 9415; 9010/2 respectivly for the different parts.

 

25 minutes ago, Jon said:

Have you serviced this watch movement after fully disassembling everything?

Have you checked for any chips or damage on the pallet jewels and they have a good depth of 'lock' with escape wheel teeth?

Have you checked that the impulse jewel isn't loose or not straight or chipped?

Have you checked that the notch of the pallet fork isn't damaged or badly worn?

Have you replaced the mainspring with a new one? Trying to diagnose why a movement has a low amplitude when the mainspring hasn't been replaced is a pointless exercise!

Did you check the chaton jewel isn't badly damaged or chipped, because you said there was a broken balance? I'm assuming it was a broken staff? The breaking of the staff sometimes damages the chaton it was spinning in.

Did you remove the wheel over third? That's the wheel that is staked onto the extended third wheel arbor and when you checked the freedom of the wheel train with the wheel over third removed, did you look from the side at that extended third wheel arbor to ensure it was spinning without any wobble?

Have you checked after replacing the movement with another balance that the balance end-shake is good? For this movement, it should be about 0.02 mm to 0.04 mm.

Is the hairspring touching the boot? Does the hairspring have room to breathe between the curb pin and boot?

It has been serviced; I didn't notice any chips etc on my original inspection and I think that they have a good depth; impulse jewel looks good; I will take another look at the pallet fork, but didn't notice anything on my original inspection; I am using the original mainspring (have been in contact with a watchmaker for a new mainspring but he hasn't been able to get a hold of it yet, quite strange dimensions); inspected chaton jewel but it seemed fine; did not remove the wheel (assuming you are talkin about the one in connection to the sweep pinion), it was spinning fine when i checked the train of wheels (will double check if it wobbles); have not checked end-shake will do later tonight; after adjusting the regulator arm, I believe that the hairspring has room (but will inspect again).

 

Thanks once again!

 I will keep you posted

[Jon]

1 hour ago, Nilbobaggins said:

It has been serviced

If you didn't remove the wheel over third, then it couldn't have been serviced properly, as you haven't removed the train bridge and you also couldn't have oiled the fourth wheel jewel and pivot, because the wheel over third would be blocking it. Also, you couldn't have oiled the third wheel jewel and pivot, as the wheel over third again would be blocking it. What else are you failing to tell us?

So you didn't remove all parts and clean them, therefore you don't know if anything is damaged in the gear train. That is a massive piece of information you are leaving out when you are asking us to help in trying to diagnose a fault!

Edited November 14, 2023 by Jon

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Video Joe

 Thanks N.E.W , in that case I ask all my diag be disregarded, and promise to shut up and go hide myself in closet. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Jon said:

If you didn't remove the wheel over third, then it couldn't have been serviced properly, as you haven't removed the train bridge and you also you couldn't have oiled the fourth wheel jewel and pivot, because the wheel over third would be blocking it.

So you didn't remove all parts and clean them, therefore you don't know if anything is damaged in the gear train. That is a massive piece of information you are leaving out when you are trying to diagnose a fault!

The 288 degree amplitude after sweep pinion was eliminated fooled me.

 

[Nilbobaggins]

15 minutes ago, Jon said:

If you didn't remove the wheel over third, then it couldn't have been serviced properly, as you haven't removed the train bridge and you also you couldn't have oiled the fourth wheel jewel and pivot, because the wheel over third would be blocking it.

So you didn't remove all parts and clean them, therefore you don't know if anything is damaged in the gear train. That is a massive piece of information you are leaving out when you are asking us to help in trying to diagnose a fault!

The wheel actually made me very confused when disassembling the watch. I tried to take it out but it wouldn't move, so I found a youtube video of someone taking the same movement apart and they didn't remove it either. I guess that the real mistake was to assume that video was "correct" instead of doing more research. I will start over and clean it properly!

Thank you very much

[Jon]

I keep saying to my students "Just because it is on YouTube doesn't make it the truth!" It's a dangerous place.

You need a five-spoke wheel removal tool https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/5-spoke-wheel-remover-bergeon to do the job properly

[Nilbobaggins]

2 minutes ago, Jon said:

I keep saying to my students "Just because it is on YouTube doesn't make it the truth!" It's a dangerous place.

You need a five-spoke wheel removal tool https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/5-spoke-wheel-remover-bergeon to do the job properly

Thanks! Always a nice to buy new tools

I might as well buy a new mainspring then, if they don't have the correct dimensions on cousinsuk, where else can I find one (except ebay) (1.25x9.5x0.12x270mm according to Ranfft Watches) 

 

[Jon]

Here are some slides from one of my lessons.

You can improvise, but it's always best to use the correct tool, as the extended third wheel arbor is easily bent or broken trying to improvise.

[Nilbobaggins]

5 minutes ago, Jon said:

Here are some slides from one of my lessons.

You can improvise, but it's always best to use the correct tool, as the extended third wheel arbor is easily bent or broken trying to improvise.

Thank you! I will order the tool, I don't really believe that I am competent enough to improvise when it is not needed

[Jon]

14 minutes ago, Nilbobaggins said:

I might as well buy a new mainspring then, if they don't have the correct dimensions on cousinsuk, where else can I find one (except ebay) (1.25x9.5x0.12x270mm according to Ranfft Watches) 

This is pretty close. It is a little longer than ideal, which will reduce the power reserve and it is a little narrower, which is within acceptable parameters

1.20 x .12 x 325 x 9.5 (Tissot 2481) Automatic

Cousins Ref number 2481771

[Nilbobaggins]

5 minutes ago, Jon said:

This is pretty close. It is a little longer than ideal, which will reduce the power reserve and it is a little narrower, which is within acceptable parameters

1.20 x .12 x 325 x 9.5 (Tissot 2481) Automatic

Cousins Ref number 2481771

Perfect!

 

Thanks a lot once again!

[Jon]

The rule is double the length, half the force, so you may lose a little power/amplitude, but not much and it will be better than what is already in the movement.

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Jon said:

So you didn't remove all parts and clean them, therefore you don't know if anything is damaged in the gear train. That is a massive piece of information you are leaving out when you are asking us to help in trying to diagnose a fault!

The unfortunate enthusiasm of watch repair versus watch repair.

4 hours ago, Jon said:

I keep saying to my students "Just because it is on YouTube doesn't make it the truth!" It's a dangerous place.

What YouTube is not filled with God's? The gods of watch repair. Somebody probably on this group once did a whole little ranting and raving of how The YouTube gods Okay perhaps didn't actually say the God's but YouTube's gods did more to promote hobbyist and watch repair them all the watchmakers all throughout history or something.

So there are some good and some helpful channels out there and there's a heck of a lot of well undesirable things they skip a heck of a lot of steps or Basically produce almost worthless garbage but it's entertaining the clueless. My absolute favorite so far as somebody who disassembled a cylinder watch with the power still on. Then yes it was obvious what kind of watch it was if you understand the person didn't understand and didn't really grasp the dangers.

Perhaps think about YouTube watch repair videos like let's take up a new hobby of bomb disposal. Yes there still a lot of misplaced explosive things in Europe you can help your community by watching a video and disarming one of those things. After all what could go wrong?

14 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

It is funny how today’s people rely on stupid machines as timegraphers to show them amplitude and beat error. Is it normal? I mean, how they lived before the WW2, for example?

One of the favorite sayings that my first instructor and watch repair school had don't please the timing machine. Of course that was one of those old-fashioned timing machines that just spit it out paper.

He wasn't discussing these new timing machines that have microprocessors so obviously they have intelligence they have a program. Unfortunately the program is interesting. It's interesting when you compare a witschi to the Chinese to the reality of the situation of what they can and cannot do. The unfortunate reality of a timing machine is it requires intelligence in the form of the user because the machine does not actually have any intelligence at all even if it does have a processor.

Then even if someday someone made an artificially intelligent timing machine it's still is going to have a problem if it cannot do with the human being can do. In other words you have to be able to make visual observations of what the watch is doing. The timing machine points you and directions gives you clues to what to look at but somebody still has to make a visual observation which requires experience typically lacking a newbie's.

This is why made the reference of quick pleasing the timing machine you're probably making things worse much worse.

Oh other minor problems with timing machines especially the Chinese it lacks audio. It's amazing in addition to your eyes what listening to a watch can tell you

 

On 11/12/2023 at 7:53 AM, Nilbobaggins said:

I am fairly new to watchrepair, having successfully ”repaired” 5-6 watches. I am currently working on a faulty Girard Perregaux Gyromatic and ran into a broken balance for the first time. I ordered a new one (complete balance) but probably didn’t install it perfectly. 
Does any one know just by the chaos of the timegrapher what the problem could be?

I assume you're following of the standard procedure of learning watch repair by learning as you go?

12 hours ago, Nilbobaggins said:

1. It is not 100% demagnetized. I have a cheap demagnetizer which potentially isn't good enough?

Perhaps a picture so we can see what you're using and we could help you to use it better.