Vintage pocket watch repair

[MJD]

11 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The dial should clean up nicely with warm water and washing up liquid.  I would have removed the hour hand by dressing some hand levers if necessary.  Just because the case is from 1914, it doesn't necessary mean the movement is. The movement looks older to me. 

Thanks Richard. There appears to be a date mark but it's difficult to read even under a microscope. I thought it was 1925 but could it be 1825?

Mike

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

nice thing with enameled tiles are they can be cleaned a variety of methods that anything else would disintegrate. But I've occasionally heard of people washing their dials to find that the black letters were not enameled on instead were painted I've never seen that myself but that's always a concern. I would they can be more likely if there was a store name or something that might be paid a dog but if it's fire enameled on it can withstand so water all sorts of things. At work I'll dip it in the same ultrasonic they clean the casing and band parts. Because it's really good at cleaning the little micro cracks and things. But notice how your dial is really two separate dials?it looks like to enter part has been glued in later versions they used a very low temperature solder after the parts for enameled. But yours has a white-ish look which is some sort of vintage glue which means we get it wet a risk that coming undone and you really don't want that. That means you should bill wipe your dial off with water or soapy water possibly a quick dip in the water but just be warned that might decide to disintegrate

then the hour wheel in hand. As you probably don't have the tools yet perhaps try a razor blade or two or two X-Acto blade knives on the back side and see if you can pull the hour wheel off gently at least our hands pushing against the enamel dial and it's not going to didn't it or anything that was a painted dial you wouldn't want to do this

then as you can now see the click you can gently push on it and see if it really is wound up. But I can't see how it can be because it's held this side but on the other side when you took it apart it seems like it would've been freed a spin because there wasn't really much holding in place.

Thanks John, all very helpful. I'm planning to use an ultrasonic cleaner for the other parts but for the dial I will just wipe it carefully as you advised. It definitely looks like glue holding the centre of the dial in place.

If you are correct and the movement isn't wound up then why wouldn't the winder turn?

Mike

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, MJD said:

If you are correct and the movement isn't wound up then why wouldn't the winder turn?

when the movement is out of the case how easy is it to turn the crown? Then with the movement back in the case without the dial should make it a lot easier to see what's going on.

in no particular order which ever is convenient and easy to do for instance the ratchet wheel if you gently push on it doesn't seem like it's currently under a lot of tension or does it turn freely? If it's freely you can release the click if you think it's under a lot of tension I wouldn't release the click although I don't see how you could still have any power after yet the plate off. Then you could try turning the crown and seeing what happens it may just be that everything is really really really sticky if you're lucky and there's nothing wrong with it just to good cleaning. If it actually was wound up with the movement in the case you should build a hold the crown wind it a little bit so you can release the click and then let it spin down slowly with the crown in your fingers slowly releasing the tension on the spring.

 

 

 

[MJD]

OK I can confirm that the movement was indeed fully wound. I put it back in the case and let the mainspring down slowly by releasing the click and holding the winder.

What's the best order for dismantling now? Balance and balance cock first followed by the plate, or the other way round?

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

I would remove the balance first, then the plate and work through the wheels. 

[MJD]

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I would remove the balance first, then the plate and work through the wheels. 

Thanks Richard. I'm actually starting to enjoy this.

By amazing coincidence, Lidl are selling ultrasonic cleaners tomorrow .

Mike

[JohnR725]

a lot of this depends upon the particular watch but usually the balance wheel comes out first. Followed by the pallet fork and everything else.

then for reassembly something I was find very humorous is people will put the pallet fork in first. I usually like to put all the keyless of the winding components together first then the gear train followed by the pallet fork and then finally the balance wheel. If you insist on putting the pallet fork in first you have no idea of the freedom of the gear train and it makes it basically really hard to put the wheels in. the reason you see these weird practices is because people embrace very rigid of the order that things need to be done. If you do things in the wrong order you may have to take the watch apart because some stuff does have to go in specific orders but it can vary with some watches.

 

[MJD]

I'd like to say a big thank you to everyone here who has been very patient with a complete beginner and given me the confidence to proceed with this project. With your advice I have succeeded in dismantling the movement .

I have some more questions which I realise could be asked in the relevant forums but it would be much easier for me to keep the answers in one place, so if that's OK here goes ...

I plan to clean all but the most delicate parts ultrasonically. Would this solution be OK to use?

Can I clean the barrel and mainspring assembly ultrasonically without dismantling?

Which parts are not suitable for ultrasonic cleaning?

I'm reluctant to disassemble the balance assembly any further in case I damage it. Could I soak the balance, spring and cock in lighter fluid then dry them?

Thanks again,

Mike

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by MJD
To show mainspring

[RichardHarris123]

Replace the balance for cleaning and then remove and clean the cap jewels. The mainspring needs to be removed unfortunately.  Plenty of videos on how to do so and advice on here about DIY mainspring winders, unless you feel like shelling out.  Alternatively buy a new mainspring if available, probably the easiest option.  I clean everything in the ultrasonic, lighter fluid follow by  rinse in IPA.

[MJD]

Thanks Richard, I'll have a good read of the forum now.

Mike

[JohnR725]

36 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Alternatively buy a new mainspring if available, probably the easiest option. 

normally this is wonderful advice except. The normal and modern watches one of the complications that comes up is how to get the old mainspring back into the barrel either people do it by hand or they need mainspring blinders. But the end of your mainspring is a T end and mainspring winder is the best as it's a brand-new mainspring and you are to shove it out of the ring the little T part will never stay in the whole and when you get there also give you a picture on how to put it back in with mainspring winder. Because otherwise a great quite a challenge and lead to a lot of frustration which occurred recently on another discussion group until we told them how to do that.

3 hours ago, MJD said:

I have some more questions which I realise could be asked in the relevant forums but it would be much easier for me to keep the answers in one place, so if that's OK here goes ...

yes one of my amusements is if you actually look at the breakdown of the message board and you come to the board with I have a watch that needs servicing ideally if you followed the categories your watch would get discussed a whole bunch of different sections which is nice for people that are obsessed with things going in little boxes but as long as nobody rocks the boat nobody cares in a discussion as long as this related to the discussion and doesn't go off in the other silly things.

What's interesting though is your mainspring barrel is nice and clean inside is no signs of lubrication at all? This is a vintage watch and there's no vintage lubrication I'm assuming that maybe it's been serviced in the last quite a number of years? Typically with modern mainsprings there's considered to be free lube at all actually say that some of the packages but usually we do put some lubrication on.

3 hours ago, MJD said:

Would this solution be OK to use?

usually used for cleaning the watch case band parts etc. probably not what I would recommend for the watch itself. They do make water-based cleaning products for watches but I have a problem with water-based cleaners for watches but people do do it on the group. Then as you're discovering one of the problems is if you were to purchase anything resemble commercial fluids you end up with a lot of commercial fluids. Which tend to be expensive although in this country you can order watch cleaning fluids from Amazon which I do find quite amusing as it's an easy way to get the cleaning fluid and the cleaning rinse

43 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

lighter fluid follow by  rinse in IPA.

if you do a search of the group they do talk about alternatives to lighter fluid on the other hand since you're going to do a follow-up rinse with I PA then it probably won't be an issue. Lighter fluids can have additional products which aren't always desirable in other words not bad from a cleaning point of view except if you didn't do a rinse they would leave residue behind that would help oil the spread possibly. Except of course lighter fluid is the universal choice of cleaning products on the discussion group.

[MJD]

On 8/17/2023 at 5:13 PM, JohnR725 said:

What's interesting though is your mainspring barrel is nice and clean inside is no signs of lubrication at all? This is a vintage watch and there's no vintage lubrication I'm assuming that maybe it's been serviced in the last quite a number of years? Typically with modern mainsprings there's considered to be free lube at all actually say that some of the packages but usually we do put some lubrication on.

I got the watch from my father and it came with a receipt for a service but that must have been over 20 years ago. I don't really want to buy a winder and risk messing up the spring so don't tell me off but I was just planning to blow it with a can of air. Should the spring be lubricated?

Another question: why are some of the jewels in the plates retained by screws and others not?

Mike

On 8/17/2023 at 4:25 PM, RichardHarris123 said:

Replace the balance for cleaning and then remove and clean the cap jewels. The mainspring needs to be removed unfortunately.  Plenty of videos on how to do so and advice on here about DIY mainspring winders, unless you feel like shelling out.  Alternatively buy a new mainspring if available, probably the easiest option.  I clean everything in the ultrasonic, lighter fluid follow by  rinse in IPA.

I've just read about this type of balance in de Carle's book. I need to replace it then unscrew the stud that secures the spring and lift up the cock, leaving the balance and spring behind.

I'm nervous about doing this in case I damage the spring. Do I need any special tools to reassemble it?

Mike

[JohnR725]

19 minutes ago, MJD said:

I got the watch from my father and it came with a receipt for a service but that must have been over 20 years ago. I don't really want to buy a winder and risk messing up the spring so don't tell me off but I was just planning to blow it with a can of air. Should the spring be lubricated?

what I can't tell you off I was sad. then I am going to tell you off even though you said thought to you did not read the fine print. Where exactly are you right now well you're in the safe zone and that puts restrictions on what we can say are not say. So taking out the mainspring would have all kinds of risks including because this is a vintage watch just finding another spring to put back in. Because it's nice and clean and do not going to run this every single day then you don't have to take the spring out unless? If the spring is set which it may be year probably is then you won't get 24 hours of running out of Bill depend on how badly said if it is set. So even a super badly set spring will still run the watch for while so you'll just except that it won't run overnight possibly if it does outstanding. Then yes the spring should have a small amount of lubrication you don't want to put too much because it has a habit of leaking out making a big mess.

23 minutes ago, MJD said:

Another question: why are some of the jewels in the plates retained by screws and others not?

some of the jewels are held in with screws because they have end stones. Some basic is a look pretty because some viewers do not. It has to do with the evolution of how jewels are mounted basically and of course they do look pretty with nice blue screws. That's your short version of the history.

[RichardHarris123]

How well do you want the watch to run?  If you only want to see it tick again you could follow @JohnR725 advice and leave the spring alone. You could clean everything with the balance intact and reassemble.  If you're enjoying this hobby you could practice on other watches and attempt a full service when competent. 

[MJD]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

what I can't tell you off I was sad. then I am going to tell you off even though you said thought to you did not read the fine print. Where exactly are you right now well you're in the safe zone and that puts restrictions on what we can say are not say. So taking out the mainspring would have all kinds of risks including because this is a vintage watch just finding another spring to put back in. Because it's nice and clean and do not going to run this every single day then you don't have to take the spring out unless? If the spring is set which it may be year probably is then you won't get 24 hours of running out of Bill depend on how badly said if it is set. So even a super badly set spring will still run the watch for while so you'll just except that it won't run overnight possibly if it does outstanding. Then yes the spring should have a small amount of lubrication you don't want to put too much because it has a habit of leaking out making a big mess.

some of the jewels are held in with screws because they have end stones. Some basic is a look pretty because some viewers do not. It has to do with the evolution of how jewels are mounted basically and of course they do look pretty with nice blue screws. That's your short version of the history.

If the watch runs at all when I put it back together I will be delighted. If not it will just go back in the drawer from where it came and I won't have lost anything but will have learned a lot thanks to you guys.

Mike

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

How well do you want the watch to run?  If you only want to see it tick again you could follow @JohnR725 advice and leave the spring alone. You could clean everything with the balance intact and reassemble.  If you're enjoying this hobby you could practice on other watches and attempt a full service when competent. 

Please see my reply to @JohnR725 above regarding how well I want it to run. I don't have any other watches to practice on so will do my best on this one. Life's getting busy in other areas now but I hope to have it back together in 1 to 2 weeks.

Mike

[Nucejoe]

9 hours ago, MJD said:

If the watch runs at all when I put it back together I will be delighted. If not it will just go back in the drawer from where it came and I won't have lost anything but will have learned a lot thanks to you guys.

Mike

Hello Mike;

You think watches dislike spending time in the drawer?    Wrong   !!!

Thats where they don't have to work for a living.  lol

Seriously Mike,  We like to see you fix it. 

[MJD]

I've never seen pallet stones before. Do these look OK?

Thanks,

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

It an English lever escapement.  The jewels look a bit deep set.

[MJD]

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

It an English lever escapement.  The jewels look a bit deep set.

I presume an experienced watch repairer could rectify this for me?

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

Yes a repairer could do it, you probably can do it yourself.  The jewels are held in by shellac, which softens when warmed, allowing repositioning.  Here's a photo of one of my English levers. I can't tell if yours have snapped off. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by RichardHarris123

[nickelsilver]

On this type of lever with the slots "the other way" it's normal for the jewels to be set essentially flush with the slot opening, and it's very difficult to move them.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

On this type of lever with the slots "the other way" it's normal for the jewels to be set essentially flush with the slot opening, and it's very difficult to move them.

typical with watch repair especially vintage is variations. Because you have so many variations is usually best to not to play with things until you discover they don't work. So this lever looks fine to me as the ones I've seen all have the jewels well some of them some stick out and some are parallel just like this.

 

 

 

[MJD]

5 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Yes a repairer could do it, you probably can do it yourself.  The jewels are held in by shellac, which softens when warmed, allowing repositioning.  Here's a photo of one of my English levers. I can't tell if yours have snapped off. 

Wow mine are nothing like that, they are almost flush with the slots but as the ends are rounded I'm pretty certain they haven't snapped off.

Mike

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

On this type of lever with the slots "the other way" it's normal for the jewels to be set essentially flush with the slot opening, and it's very difficult to move them.

Well that's encouraging for me then, thank you .

Mike

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

typical with watch repair especially vintage is variations. Because you have so many variations is usually best to not to play with things until you discover they don't work. So this lever looks fine to me as the ones I've seen all have the jewels well some of them some stick out and some are parallel just like this.

 

 

 

Thank you @JohnR725. I will see what happens when it's back together ...

Mike

[MJD]

Good news and bad news ...

I have cleaned, reassembled and (carefully) oiled the movement but not yet fitted the dial or hands.

If I shake the watch gently the balance moves freely and the escape wheel turns.

However, after a few turns of the winder the watch doesn't run so I'm pretty much back to where I started.

Is there any way I can identify where the problem lies?

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

Remove the balance, gently push the pallet, it should snap from side to side.  If not, power isn't getting through to it . So it's either a problem with the pallet or the wheel train.  If it doesn't snap back and forth, let down the mainspring and remove the pallet, with a slight wind you'll be able to see if the wheel train is moving freely. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, MJD said:

Good news and bad news ...

I have cleaned, reassembled and (carefully) oiled the movement but not yet fitted the dial or hands.

If I shake the watch gently the balance moves freely and the escape wheel turns.

However, after a few turns of the winder the watch doesn't run so I'm pretty much back to where I started.

Is there any way I can identify where the problem lies?

Mike

Maybe the extra torque coming through to the train wheels is binding them up if there is too much endshake ( side to side wobble )  on the train pivots. Try the 2 suggestions from Rich.