Vintage pocket watch repair

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, MJD said:

have cleaned, reassembled and (carefully) oiled the movement but not yet fitted the dial or hands.

If I shake the watch gently the balance moves freely and the escape wheel turns.

However, after a few turns of the winder the watch doesn't run so I'm pretty much back to where I started.

Is there any way I can identify where the problem lies?

when you're assembling the watch and you put the gear train in before you put the pallet fork in and the balance wheel you would attempt to wind the watch which I realize in your particular case is a bit weird but still you attempt to wind the watch and make sure that the gear train spins. One of the test for whether the train is free but it depends upon the particular watches is to look for something callbacks spin. This is where you wind the watch until the train spins you stop then the train will spend down losing energy but it I should go past the stopping point and slightly backward wind the mainspring and in the train will stop next to go backwards just say. But it depends upon the particular watch that's usually considered a very free gear train. But no matter what you want to wind the watch and make sure that the gear train is free spinning. Then you put in the pallet fork only no balance wheel yet and verify that that is functional app the same time your lubricating that in other words are lubricating the escapement. Then when that works you can put in the balance wheel.

 

[MJD]

16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

when you're assembling the watch and you put the gear train in before you put the pallet fork in and the balance wheel you would attempt to wind the watch which I realize in your particular case is a bit weird but still you attempt to wind the watch and make sure that the gear train spins. One of the test for whether the train is free but it depends upon the particular watches is to look for something callbacks spin. This is where you wind the watch until the train spins you stop then the train will spend down losing energy but it I should go past the stopping point and slightly backward wind the mainspring and in the train will stop next to go backwards just say. But it depends upon the particular watch that's usually considered a very free gear train. But no matter what you want to wind the watch and make sure that the gear train is free spinning. Then you put in the pallet fork only no balance wheel yet and verify that that is functional app the same time your lubricating that in other words are lubricating the escapement. Then when that works you can put in the balance wheel.

 

That all makes a lot of sense. I missed a clue early on when I removed the plate on a fully wound  mainspring and nothing flew out ...

I have now removed the balance and pallet and sure enough the train spins nicely so I will proceed as advised.

In the meantime could someone tell me the function of the bent wire at the bottom of the photo that engages with a slot in the side of the case?

Edit: refitting the pallet stops the movement so now I need to find out why.

PS it wasn't me who scratched the plate!

Mike

I don't know how to fault find the escape mechanism so I tried this:

If I rotate wheel A clockwise the escape wheel moves freely and the pallet rocks back and forth.

If I rotate the barrel with the click removed then wheel B moves freely.

If I then fit wheel C the movement locks up.

Does that give any clues to the problem?

Mike

Edited August 23, 2023 by MJD
additional information

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, MJD said:

In the meantime could someone tell me the function of the bent wire at the bottom of the photo that engages with a slot in the side of the case?

did you notice how your watch has a second hand which is somewhat unusual for watch like this. And this is a hacking mechanism that allows you to stop the balance wheel at a very specific time season scepter watched the exact time.

of what a picture of the bridge in place over the pallet fork so we can see how that looks

[MJD]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

And this is a hacking mechanism that allows you to stop the balance wheel at a very specific time season scepter watched the exact time.

Thank you. The curved bar with the slot was seized in the case so now I understand what it's for.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

of what a picture of the bridge in place over the pallet fork so we can see how that looks

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean?

Mike

I just realised that I was looking at the back of the watch, so wheel A should be rotating anticlockwise, but with the pallet and bridge  in place it doesn't move.

Edited August 23, 2023 by MJD

[RichardHarris123]

Remove the pallet, replace the pallet/ escape wheel cock and replace the plate. Rotate the barrel and see if the escape wheel moves freely. 

[MJD]

14 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Remove the pallet, replace the pallet/ escape wheel cock and replace the plate. Rotate the barrel and see if the escape wheel moves freely. 

Good morning Richard.

I have done as you advised and can report that everything, including the escape wheel, is moving freely.

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

Replace the pallet, wind and see if the pallet snaps back and forth. 

[MJD]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Replace the pallet, wind and see if the pallet snaps back and forth. 

OK thanks I will try that later.

Mike

1 hour ago, MJD said:

OK thanks I will try that later.

Mike

Right just done that and no movement whatsoever. Can I just confirm that this is with the balance removed?

However if I gently rock the pallet fork by hand then the escape wheel rotates and the train moves (the second wheel rotates).

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

Yes, with the balance removed.  Does the pallet snap from side to side?  If not, it's not moving properly. With the escape wheel removed, doe's the pallet move freely? 

[MJD]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Yes, with the balance removed.  Does the pallet snap from side to side?  If not, it's not moving properly. With the escape wheel removed, doe's the pallet move freely? 

Yes the pallet moves freely with the escape wheel removed but it doesn't snap from side to side with the wheel in place so I'm confused.

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

The pallet should snap from side to side with a  gentle push not by itself.  If not its a problem with the pallet. 

[MJD]

Let me see if I understand what's happening here.

The mainspring is wound, the pallet is in place and the balance removed.

If I touch the pallet is does indeed snap back and forth as you said. But shouldn't the watch be running even without the balance?

Mike

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, MJD said:

But shouldn't the watch be running even without the balance?

I'm confused here. Watch can't run without the balance wheel. The balance wheel is the time control device to allow the power to be released through the escapement. So they can't run without a balance wheel. Although if you manually push the fork back and forth you will let the power escape.

[RichardHarris123]

There's power getting to the pallet, so either a ballance issue or you haven't got the impulse jewel on the correct side of the pallet.  When the balance is reinstalled it should be able to move in both directions, if not the impulse jewel is on the wrong side of the pallet.  Reinstall the balance and check it can move in both directions, blow it with a puffer. 

[MJD]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Watch can't run without the balance wheel.

Thanks for explaining that (and for being patient with me!).

Mike

56 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

There's power getting to the pallet, so either a ballance issue or you haven't got the impulse jewel on the correct side of the pallet.  When the balance is reinstalled it should be able to move in both directions, if not the impulse jewel is on the wrong side of the pallet.  Reinstall the balance and check it can move in both directions, blow it with a puffer. 

I don't know what an impulse jewel is, but one end of the pallet has a notch to fit a pin on the balance so it is definitely the right way round. I will refit the balance now ansd see what happens.

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

The pin on the balance is the impulse jewel, it has to start of on the correct side of the pallet.  If not it will hit the pallet and only move in one direction.  We are here to help so I'll carry on until you are successful. 

[JohnR725]

30 minutes ago, MJD said:

(and for being patient with me!).

don't worry about it it's what were here for. The only time I get impatient with people is well several reasons whining about the high cost of horological lubrication, whining about the high cost of watch repair or not wanting to listen and pay attention to what the heck they're supposed to be doing.

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

There's power getting to the pallet, so either a ballance issue or you haven't got the impulse jewel on the correct side of the pallet.  When the balance is reinstalled it should be able to move in both directions, if not the impulse jewel is on the wrong side of the pallet.  Reinstall the balance and check it can move in both directions, blow it with a puffer. 

this is what I like about a discussion group there's always something you forget the mention and someone else will come along and together our answers become much more useful. there is much stuff we just take for granted because we do it every day and we just don't think about it.

[MJD]

OK thanks guys. I know from trying to diagnose faults with electronic equipment remotely how difficult and frustrating it can be so I appreciate your patience.

I have refitted the balance with the pin (sorry, impulse jewel!) engaged in the notch on the end of the pallet (I presume that is correct?). The balance moves freely in both directions but still the watch doesn't run.

Mike

 

[JohnR725]

24 minutes ago, MJD said:

I have refitted the balance with the pin (sorry, impulse jewel!) engaged in the notch on the end of the pallet (I presume that is correct?). The balance moves freely in both directions but still the watch doesn't run.

When the balance wheel is moving under manual control does the pallet fork move when the roller jewel engages with it?

[MJD]

31 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

When the balance wheel is moving under manual control does the pallet fork move when the roller jewel engages with it?

Yes it does.

Mike

There is a fair amount of play in the balance, which the paper shim reduces. I will try some thicker paper tomorrow.

Mike

[MJD]

Hmm now I have a new problem. The impulse pin has gone missing ...

Will I be able to find a replacement anywhere or is this now a lost cause?

By the way, it was a metal pin not a jewel so maybe repaired sometime in the past?

Mike

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by MJD
additional information

[JohnR725]

15 minutes ago, MJD said:

The impulse pin has gone missing

one of the problems with watch repair is is a lot of stuff you have to remember to check and do. On vintage watches you always want to check the roller jewel/impulse pin to make sure it's not loose. For variety reasons the shellac goes bad with time or can go bad and taken fallout it would really be nice if you could find the original one.

So yes it can be replaced you just need to figure out what size it is it does have to be a proper size to fit the slot of the pallet fork then some tools are required to heat up the shellac to lock it in place.

[MJD]

20 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

one of the problems with watch repair is is a lot of stuff you have to remember to check and do. On vintage watches you always want to check the roller jewel/impulse pin to make sure it's not loose. For variety reasons the shellac goes bad with time or can go bad and taken fallout it would really be nice if you could find the original one.

So yes it can be replaced you just need to figure out what size it is it does have to be a proper size to fit the slot of the pallet fork then some tools are required to heat up the shellac to lock it in place.

Yes, another rookie error ...

I did try to find it. I work on a tidy bench with a sheet of paper taped to it but it's nowhere to be seen. It might be inside the watch.

I've watched a couple of videos of this so I understand what you're saying, but their jewels seem to be D shaped whereas this was a circular pin which I assume was the same diameter as the hole it fits into on the roller and there's no evidence of shellac being used to secure it.

Would I be banned from the forum if I suggested using a brass pin and superglue?

Mike

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, MJD said:

I've watched a couple of videos of this so I understand what you're saying, but their jewels seem to be D shaped whereas this was a circular pin which I assume was the same diameter as the hole it fits into on the roller and there's no evidence of shellac being used to secure it.

Would I be banned from the forum if I suggested using a brass pin and superglue?

roller jewel's common a variety of shapes over history. Finally settling on the D shaped one

I wouldn't assume it's the same diameter as the hole because typically they were not. It basically has to be of a size to fit into the slot of the fork with a tiny bit of clearance

if you use a brass pin it still has to meet the requirements of size. In other words it has to fit into the slot of the fork and it can't be too long. Although typically on single roller watches there longer than a double roller watch. Which makes them harder to find you could replace it with a D shaped jewel but you still have to find one that's long enough. So brass pin would work fine. At least with the superglue I believe it comes off with acetone we just have to make sure that the pin is up right and straight and not leaning in some direction.

 

[RichardHarris123]

You've nothing to lose, try making a  new pin and see what happens.