Vintage pocket watch repair

[MJD]

On 9/2/2023 at 6:06 PM, RichardHarris123 said:

What do you intend doing? 

OK I've had a mad idea. I see bags of assorted balance staffs for sale on ebay for not much money. I could buy 100 or so and mic them up to find one that's close enough to modify. How would I go about finding someone in the UK who could do this for me?

Mike

[tomh207]

Modifying or measuring? These have to be very exact, even having a specific tool to do it though it can do more. Search for JKA Feintaster.

 

 

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, MJD said:

OK I've had a mad idea. I see bags of assorted balance staffs for sale on ebay for not much money. I could buy 100 or so and mic them up to find one that's close enough to modify. How would I go about finding someone in the UK who could do this for me?

When you did all the measurements for your balance staff did you make a drawing of it? Then did we also account for the hairspring collet not holding? At least I vaguely recall that It  fell off which is not supposed to do.

Then if you're not going to modify the staff yourself going to find somebody else to do it, it might just be best to have them make you a new balance staff exactly like what you have.

[MJD]

11 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Modifying or measuring? These have to be very exact, even having a specific tool to do it though it can do more. Search for JKA Feintaster.

 

 

I can see how that tool would be the thing to use but it is far too expensive for one watch repair. I have a good dial gauge but not the equipment necessary to make a measuring table.

Mike

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

When you did all the measurements for your balance staff did you make a drawing of it? Then did we also account for the hairspring collet not holding? At least I vaguely recall that It  fell off which is not supposed to do.

Then if you're not going to modify the staff yourself going to find somebody else to do it, it might just be best to have them make you a new balance staff exactly like what you have.

Yes the hairspring collet did fall off!

OK then I need to find someone in the UK who can make me a new staff. Google has failed me so far ...

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

Sorry, I can't help.  I don't have a  lathe or I would do it for you. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, MJD said:

I can see how that tool would be the thing to use but it is far too expensive for one watch repair. I have a good dial gauge but not the equipment necessary to make a measuring table.

Mike

Yes the hairspring collet did fall off!

OK then I need to find someone in the UK who can make me a new staff. Google has failed me so far ...

Mike

There is a guy in my town in yorkshire that might do it. The problem you might have if you are just asking to have a staff made up from your sizes, it could still be off by at least a 100th of a mil in any of the dimensions that are given. From your sizes to his manufacturing  you could easily end up with some adjusting to do yourself. Without a watchmaker's lathe with a jacot attachment or a separate jacot tool then a problem. The watchmaker ideally needs the watch to bring it altogether. Hence maybe why a 400 note estimate. If you are interested i can ask the watchmaker he is only a mile from me to see what your options are Mike.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The problem you might have if you are just asking to have a staff made up from your sizes, it could still be off by at least a 100th of a mil in any of the dimensions that are given. From your sizes to his manufacturing  you could easily end up with some adjusting to do yourself.

Because he's new to watch repair is not asking for the right thing. What he requires is somebody to make a balance staff for his watch. Typically somebody making a balance staff for specific watch does not make it to dimensions they make it to fit that exact watch.

The reason for the dimensions were wishful thinking that something out there existing might fit. But typically vintage like this it probably is not going to fit this was a semi-handmade watch.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Because he's new to watch repair is not asking for the right thing. What he requires is somebody to make a balance staff for his watch. Typically somebody making a balance staff for specific watch does not make it to dimensions they make it to fit that exact watch.

The reason for the dimensions were wishful thinking that something out there existing might fit. But typically vintage like this it probably is not going to fit this was a semi-handmade watch.

Hopefully any maker he asks will state the complication of just suppling a dimension given made up staff and the extra work needed to make it fit and the watch run, fitting the staff to the balance wheel so the pivots can be trimmed to suit the jewel holes and more besides. Sounds like a tall order for a someone knew to watch repair, the tools needed alone would exceed the original estimate. 

[RichardHarris123]

@MJD, doesn't have a  staking set either, so he could do with the balance rebuilt. 

[MJD]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

There is a guy in my town in yorkshire that might do it. The problem you might have if you are just asking to have a staff made up from your sizes, it could still be off by at least a 100th of a mil in any of the dimensions that are given. From your sizes to his manufacturing  you could easily end up with some adjusting to do yourself. Without a watchmaker's lathe with a jacot attachment or a separate jacot tool then a problem. The watchmaker ideally needs the watch to bring it altogether. Hence maybe why a 400 note estimate. If you are interested i can ask the watchmaker he is only a mile from me to see what your options are Mike.

Yes please if you could ask him that would be very helpful.

I don't know the basis of the £400 estimate I was given. The guy didn't seem very interested and didn't give the impression that he'd actually identified the problem.

Mike

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, MJD said:

Yes please if you could ask him that would be very helpful.

I don't know the basis of the £400 estimate I was given. The guy didn't seem very interested and didn't give the impression that he'd actually identified the problem.

Mike

No problem, I've been wanting an excuse to speak to him for a while now. 

6 hours ago, MJD said:

Yes please if you could ask him that would be very helpful.

I don't know the basis of the £400 estimate I was given. The guy didn't seem very interested and didn't give the impression that he'd actually identified the problem.

Mike

Just spoke to the repairers wife, he doesn't repair pocket watches anymore as he is coming into retirement and winding down his business. He only services and repairs Rolex for his main clients now as thats something he has good stock of after 40 years in the business. She said its too much hassle trying to source parts now to repair anything else. It sounded as though he doesn't make staffs anyway they used someone down in cornwall that made them but thinks he has passed away. Suggested looking in the BHI magazines as sometimes there are  balance staff makers adverts in there. 

[MJD]

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

No problem, I've been wanting an excuse to speak to him for a while now. 

Just spoke to the repairers wife, he doesn't repair pocket watches anymore as he is coming into retirement and winding down his business. He only services and repairs Rolex for his main clients now as thats something he has good stock of after 40 years in the business. She said its too much hassle trying to source parts now to repair anything else. It sounded as though he doesn't make staffs anyway they used someone down in cornwall that made them but thinks he has passed away. Suggested looking in the BHI magazines as sometimes there are  balance staff makers adverts in there. 

OK and many thanks for enquiring for me. The search will continue ...

Mike

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, MJD said:

OK and many thanks for enquiring for me. The search will continue ...

Mike

Thats ok, sorry it wasn't of much help, if anyone in the forum is a member of the BHI they might look through the monthly magazines to see if there is a staff maker. You can also download a pdf from the site that contains all the accredited members in the Uk. Thats how i found the one near me. But again you still need to tailor any close fitting staff yourself to make your watch run.  At the minimum you will need a staking set to rivet the staff to the balance wheel and probably a jacot tool to final size the pivots. I hope things workout for you Mike.

[MJD]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats ok, sorry it wasn't of much help, if anyone in the forum is a member of the BHI they might look through the monthly magazines to see if there is a staff maker. You can also download a pdf from the site that contains all the accredited members in the Uk. Thats how i found the one near me. But again you still need to tailor any close fitting staff yourself to make your watch run.  At the minimum you will need a staking set to rivet the staff to the balance wheel and probably a jacot tool to final size the pivots. I hope things workout for you Mike.

Thanks again @Neverenoughwatches. I will do as you suggest. I was hoping that who ever made the new staff could fit the balance wheel for me.

Anyway that's all for now, back to my holiday and many thanks again to everyone here for being so patient and helpful. I'll let you know how I get on.

Mike

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, MJD said:

I will do as you suggest. I was hoping that who ever made the new staff could fit the balance wheel for me.

What you're looking for is somebody who works on vintage watches. They should have the capabilities of making a new staff to this watch in other words it fits this watch exactly. It basically be extremely stupid to make the staff from the dimensions and have you fit the thing which you can't do anyway. Basically somebody would make the staff to fit this exact watch. Also dealing with the hairspring collet issue and probably just restoring the watch or at least making it run basically dealing with whatever else is going on. In other words somebody who specializes in restoring vintage watches.

[Neverenoughwatches]

29 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

What you're looking for is somebody who works on vintage watches. They should have the capabilities of making a new staff to this watch in other words it fits this watch exactly. It basically be extremely stupid to make the staff from the dimensions and have you fit the thing which you can't do anyway. Basically somebody would make the staff to fit this exact watch. Also dealing with the hairspring collet issue and probably just restoring the watch or at least making it run basically dealing with whatever else is going on. In other words somebody who specializes in restoring vintage watches.

And that somebody would be you my dear John , our very own watch angel. You do know that you are never allowed to leave us don't you. I can find you if you do, really i can

[JohnR725]

23 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

And that somebody would be you

Have you ever bothered to read the rules of the message board? let me quote something for you

Mark doesn't really have a lot of rules but it does look like promoting one's self would be frowned on. Have you noticed that I have never told anybody where I work ever? Yes I do work for somebody and I do restore vintage watches this is why grasp what somebody should be able to do.

Oh look I could give you a link to somebody could make a balance staff and fix the watch except I happen to know he's thinking of retiring and would be very unhappy with me if I gave him another project.

Then there's the other peculiar problem I believe that the watch is currently located in the United Kingdom. The same United Kingdom that I believe has an association known as the British horological Institute which I've actually visited at one time. Did you know they really big in making things? So they have courses where you learn how to make a lot of stuff I'm sure somewhere in that course they probably make a balance staff.   so basically it seems to me that there should be somebody in the UK who could restore this watch is probably made in the UK in the first place.You just have to find somebody who does vintage restoration versus modern parts swapping.

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Have you ever bothered to read the rules of the message board? let me quote something for you

Mark doesn't really have a lot of rules but it does look like promoting one's self would be frowned on. Have you noticed that I have never told anybody where I work ever? Yes I do work for somebody and I do restore vintage watches this is why grasp what somebody should be able to do.

Oh look I could give you a link to somebody could make a balance staff and fix the watch except I happen to know he's thinking of retiring and would be very unhappy with me if I gave him another project.

Then there's the other peculiar problem I believe that the watch is currently located in the United Kingdom. The same United Kingdom that I believe has an association known as the British horological Institute which I've actually visited at one time. Did you know they really big in making things? So they have courses where you learn how to make a lot of stuff I'm sure somewhere in that course they probably make a balance staff.   so basically it seems to me that there should be somebody in the UK who could restore this watch is probably made in the UK in the first place.You just have to find somebody who does vintage restoration versus modern parts swapping.

Haha yes John there are some people here in the Uk that could do it. It was a rhetorical statement, just blowing smoke up your jacksee buddy.

[JohnR725]

55 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It was a rhetorical statement, just blowing smoke up your jacksee buddy.

You do know that I don't do well with stuff like this?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

You do know that I don't do well with stuff like this?

Ah ok Sorry John, no i didn't tbh. My apologies. 

[MJD]

OK I've reached a decision on this.

I followed the advice here and consulted the list of BHI accredited watchmakers. There are two local to me. One is the chap who gave me the estimate of £400. He had the watch for months, didn't tell me what work needed doing and didn't seem interested in taking it on.

The other seemed really nice and said he enjoyed making balance staffs but was so busy he didn't have the time.

So I've decided to reassemble the watch and put it back in the drawer for the time being.

My huge thanks to everyone here for your advice. You have taught me how to dismantle a pocket watch properly .

Mike

[rossjackson01]

2 hours ago, MJD said:

So I've decided to reassemble the watch and put it back in the drawer for the time being.

MJD. Made the same decision on my first match disassembly. A BTC fob watch from about 1900. Since then I have been lucky enough to obtain two movements, supposedly the same, but slightly different. 

I'm pretty sure I am now capable of doing a full movement repair. Only have to learn how to repair a case now.

Take your time and do a watchmaking course. Well worth it. It's a wonderful hobby.

Edited September 22, 2023 by rossjackson01
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[RichardHarris123]

Well it's a shame we couldn't help more but I'm glad you learnt something.