What causes a quartz watch to start running slow?

[Endeavor]

Hello All;

I was wondering whether to post this question in the "safe-zone", as I know very little about quartz watches. I've stripped and re-assembled a few harmless quartz watches in the past, but this one is far more dangerous; it's my wife's Baume & Mercier !

 

It has a 4-jewels quartz movement 5057, was bought in ≈ 2008 and never serviced.

I've done the battery changes ever since and it ran about 4-5 years on a battery. From memory, the last time I've changed the battery was about 1-1/2 years ago. A month ago my wife complained that her watch was running slow, about 10min behind. So, I changed the battery for a (still sealed) new one. The 1-1/2 year old battery measured 1.414V

This morning again, the watch was about 3-4 min behind. Took the 1 month "old" battery out and it measured 1.585V. This afternoon I inserted another new battery, measuring 1.59V, and we'll see what happens.

While waiting, it can't do any harm to ask around what the causes could be?

I would have thought that if a service is due, it still keeps time but would drain the battery faster?

Any thoughts, tips, idea's ?

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Endeavor

[LittleWatchShop]

My first guess would be that it needs cleaning.

My second SWAG would be it may have lost the memory that stores the frequency correction.  It is stored in EEPROM which lose its memory over time (though this would be VERY unusual IMHO).

I real head scratcher!

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

safe-zone",

no you do not want to do that then I have to be nice. A case C and questions there and I just walk away because I'm not sure how to answer some of the questions. Or if I do answer questions I'm forced to try to be really really really nice and not say what I'm really thinking it limits the responses you're going to get.

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

but this one is far more dangerous; it's my wife's Baume & Mercier !

yes this is definitely a safe zone issue. This is where I would advise don't do it. In watch repair any time anyone finds out you can repair a watch suddenly watches will start appearing. Seemingly innocent little things like your wife's watch or a Prius family heirloom and as we all know watch repair is easy especially when you're starting out. So then you have to ask is it worth the risk? Will your wife still be talking to you if it doesn't work ever again? Always something to think about.

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

It has a 4-jewels quartz movement 5057, was bought in ≈ 2008 and never serviced.

unfortunately quartz watches have the same flaws as a mechanical watch and bonus ones. That is they do need to be serviced. Also like mechanical watches if the gaskets start to go which they will over time conceivably moisture will get in then you can have corrosion issues. The bonus issue are quartz watch is they run on extremely tiny amounts of power and seemingly innocent little things that would never bother mechanical watch will bother quartz watch. Not quite a speck of dust but anything bigger than a microscopic's back in the right place in the watch will stop.

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

've done the battery changes ever since and it ran about 4-5 years on a battery. From memory, the last time I've changed the battery was about 1-1/2 years ago. A month ago my wife complained that her watch was running slow, about 10min behind. So, I changed the battery for a (still sealed) new one. The 1-1/2 year old battery measured 1.414V

This morning again, the watch was about 3-4 min behind. Took the 1 month "old" battery out and it measured 1.585V. This afternoon I inserted another new battery, measuring 1.59V, and we'll see what happens.

based on your voltages it sounds like you're using a DVM? So with a digital volt meter that provides basically no load on a battery will get 1.59 V brand-new. Ill drop a little bit but it will level out one very level for a very long time. Then depending upon the watch bike of it has a secondhand typically when it reaches a certain voltage it will indicate change the battery. All your voltages should have been more than enough to run the watch.

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

While waiting, it can't do any harm to ask around what the causes could be?

yes it can cause a harm currently the perception is changing the battery will fix the problem but it won't now you have a problem we'll have to do something. With enough fresh batteries you might've been good for a while longer not really but

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

I would have thought that if a service is due, it still keeps time but would drain the battery faster?

Any thoughts, tips, idea's ?

quartz watches of course do not function like a mechanical watch. Then they have the added bonus of being like a black box input output and what's going on inside there? Especially when it comes the circuitry so now we require equipment. Like ways of measuring fractional currents and a variable voltage power supplies required. Then technically not a well something with limited power you don't want to accidentally short the wires and vaporize something of the watch using a very high power normal power supply you might use for powering other stuff

so yes in the case of a quartz watch anything that interferes with the running of the watch causes the power to increase in the form of how much courage is drawn. If you take a quartz watch for the secondhand your measuring the microamps you stop the secondhand from moving you'll see the current increase. Normally when I'm servicing a quartz watch I like to do a before and after current consumption and verify its within specifications. Then if you get newer watches they can actually adapt the power to the stepping motor. The width of the pulse increases when it senses it needs to. Like on a calendar change so normally rerunning at a certain power when it detects it has to get the calendar change it will increase the pulse width. I find amusing witschi way of a machine at work that I don't always use I prefer the analog current meter because it's easier to see trends then a digital display. But with the expensive digital tester it will tell me exactly how wide the pulses. But what's the point I don't know of any technical sheet that says it shouldn't be this when it's okay and it should be this what's driving the calendar so what's the point of giving me a number that I have no reference for other than if I was a factory which I'm not. On the other hand the fancy machine tells me of the quartz is oscillating which you can't tell normally by just visually looking at the quartz crystal in seeing vibrate for instance

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

5057,

so searching online for the number reveals mental confusion on my part that's not actually a movement number it's there something it looks like all of their watches may have the same number. So the next time you changing the battery which will be very very soon please get a photograph of the movement.

Then in the field of quartz watch repair you typically have two things running slow stopping or not running. This could either be a battery or a service issue. Quartz watches because they run on tiny quantities of power almost anything will stop them including bad lubrication in other words it needs to be serviced. Any specks of dust when you open the watch up if you not super careful a spec a dust falls in the anything they interferes with the watchmaking appeared to be a watch running slow were it's basically a mechanical issue of something interfering with the watch running. Typically servicing will solve that problem.

Fast is always circuit related. Those who is why typically you never see fast and occasionally it occurs but that usually is almost nonexistent.

33 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

My second SWAG would be it may have lost the memory that stores the frequency correction.  It is stored in EEPROM which lose its memory over time (though this would be VERY unusual IMHO)

this is a question I ponder for very vintage watches? The early watches had trimmer capacitors relatively simple circuits then they went to the EEPROM programming for a variety of parameters. Which even had a quartz machine that would reprogram the watch for you with several protocols except of course you do not get a tech sheet as to which protocol you need. So I have pondered whether the first generations of those conceivably can lose their programming. But I don't think we've seen it yet. Then along those lines what about all the early computers the people that are collecting computers that the memory is in a dear my memories failing? Not the EEPROM's but the UV erased stuff. Don't they lose their memory of eventually?

Now back to the reality of the situation you have two options well technically three. The easiest option would be find somebody else to handle the problem it's not your expertise level and you don't feel good about doing it. Number two service the watch as that's all it probably needs it just needs to be cleaned the gaskets in the case need to be replaced that will probably fix your problem but there is the other option

this is why we need a picture of the movement movement which would need any way to get technical specs. Where I work the procedure would be watch comes in it seems to be running we change the battery. Customer comes back watches still having an issue. The money that went into your battery will be applied to the repair. Sometimes they try to jumpstart it they put it on a device that will spin the road are hoping to break free the lubrication and as an added bonus they put a little quartz watch oil on the various pivots they can see in other words a Band-Aid fix and they see if they get the watch jumpstarted again if so it goes back to the customer at no charge. But if that doesn't work then they will typically do a movement swap. They swap movements all day along and that section. It's one of the amusing aspects of watches you paid all that money and inside is a movement that cost like $20 or less. So movement swap is a valid repair the relatively inexpensive just make sure everything is really really clean and replace the gaskets to avoid any future issues

then worst-case with anything valuable and vintage it becomes an overhaul. that typically lands on my desk. I remember the last Seiko watch when I lifted off the plate the wheels were stuck to it. Mechanical watch well even ladies watch that would be a tough running situation but on a quartz watch totally unacceptable.

Picture the movement would be helpful.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

I think this is the movement.  Found it using ebay search.

I think using a turbo to do a "band-aid" fix is at least a good troubleshooting path.

[Endeavor]

Thanks John;

I still do value my life, so I'm hanging on your lips

Picture will be soon ......

 

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

It's one of the amusing aspects of watches you paid all that money and inside is a movement that cost like $20 or less.

Yup, you are paying for the name and the visual aspects of the watch...not the guts.  Great marketing.  Great branding.

[JohnR725]

36 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

not the guts

thinking about this if you run into people collecting an American pocket watches for instancethey will tell you I have a Hamilton 992 or I have a Hamilton 992b there very proud of the movement in the watch. Or even some wristwatch collectors Rolex in particular but others there very proud of the particular movement. Especially if you have a window in the back so they can actually see the movement versus they think that's in there but maybe it is or is not. Kinda like the people who buy cloned watches don't actually know what's inside their watch

but in a case of the modern typically quartz watch it's a jewelry item that happens to tell time it's a fashion watch. So when their changing batteries on the other desk you look at the movements and shake my head because? Without basically I better not say what I'm thinking in the shop and get in trouble they are pretty darn cheap movements with a lot of plastic components await bad wording engineered material components.

Which of course makes it easy to do a movement swap because they have no sentimental attachment to the inside of their watch. this is starting to come up with even some Seiko watches as Seiko's OEM division has an equivalent movement C can just do a movement swap as it's a lot cheaper than doing overhaul. Just try to do that to somebody who knows what's inside their watch like all at swap out that Rolex 3035 as it's vintage and let's put this modern Swiss quartz movement instead no more pesky any problem in their watch will run perfect at least until you need to change the next battery see what happens. Plus conceivably the quartz watch might even keep better time than that vintage Rolex

[LittleWatchShop]

You can buy this:

Which has a $200 SW200 movement and costs $2500

Or you can buy this:

Which has a $200 SW200 movement and costs $350

[JohnR725]

your example reminds me of I once took a class with watchmakers who worked for a specific store. The particular store has locations all up and down the West Coast as far as Hawaii and I don't off they go as far as Texas. In a case that a lot of watchmakers and I took a class on her Omega quartz watch. Which of course is really a eta movement. A couple of the amusements the Omega quartz watch was like having around $2000 the Hamilton version was $500 in this watch was I believe $60 maybe it was 75. So I have one of those lurking around here someplace. Now this watch is not identical cousins and molded plastic but the Hamilton would be identical almost.

So of course the question came up is how can you sell and well Omega has a name brand name and Hamilton has its own brand name but their identical inside basically

then the other amusement was Jeff the head watchmaker was trying to inquire as to whether the parts in the Swatch group would fit the other watch because he was having a hard time getting them and of course if you so much cheaper.

 

 

[nickelsilver]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

your example reminds me of I once took a class with watchmakers who worked for a specific store. The particular store has locations all up and down the West Coast as far as Hawaii and I don't off they go as far as Texas. In a case that a lot of watchmakers and I took a class on her Omega quartz watch. Which of course is really a eta movement. A couple of the amusements the Omega quartz watch was like having around $2000 the Hamilton version was $500 in this watch was I believe $60 maybe it was 75. So I have one of those lurking around here someplace. Now this watch is not identical cousins and molded plastic but the Hamilton would be identical almost.

So of course the question came up is how can you sell and well Omega has a name brand name and Hamilton has its own brand name but their identical inside basically

then the other amusement was Jeff the head watchmaker was trying to inquire as to whether the parts in the Swatch group would fit the other watch because he was having a hard time getting them and of course if you so much cheaper.

 

 

Well numerous upon numerous brands used AS, F, P, FHF, ETA, etc. movements in mechanical days without noting who made the movement. Hell, even rolex used the Valjoux 72 for the Daytona, 72 movement goes for 4-1000, Daytona with that movement,  40k to 100k (or much much more). 1k for one of the best chronos ever made is ok.

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

Ih have two V72s as Wittnauer chronographs. One, my dad gave me. The other my dad gave to my brother. Mine is broke. My brother's is working. I bought it from him for $1600.

I plan to fix mine this year...I hope.

[Endeavor]

While I was waiting for the next sunrise, I can see that the train went a bit of its tracks

Here a picture of the 5057 and its indeed the same as LittleWatchShope found;

I found a few 5057 movements on eBay, second-hand, allegedly working, for a whopping €242 excluding postage. Being 2nd hand, they obviously need to be serviced too ..... but if I were to service the existing movement, and screw up, I know the starting cost.

Picture of the one offered on eBay;

Currently the watch seems to run still on time (no seconds hand, so it's a bit hard to judge).

But just in case, it would be nice to find the tech-info and/or the $20 look-alike replacement

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

36 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

5057 movements

this is kinda what happened when I googled this morning it was like all of their watches use this model number? I didn't quite grasp what was going on.

then there is the other little problem. It looks familiar and that will be a problem. So when I went looking is hoping to well I would've preferred something else but still was hoping to find something and then I found this on eBay Baume&Mercier 5057 Ebel 057 Cartier 157. It was for stem and if the stem is the same are the watches the same? Oh and of course there's one more watch that goes in with all of that. Occasionally work whenever we working on one of the high-end quartz watches I noticed that there were three of them that seem to be similar not necessarily the same part number or movement number but there are similar. It's comes out handy because I bought a CD off of eBay from the other brand I'm attaching a file.

quick look again at the Internet and I'm finding the same thing. So you have your tech sheet.what's interesting with tech sheet is their lubrication choice? I typically like the quartz oil from the company that makes expensive oils but I've had really good luck with the expense of quartz oil so I'm happy with it and synthetic it should last forever. Don't know if your favorite German company makes anything of equivalents. But I do find a choice of oil interesting as it's a lot heavier than what I would think you'd want to have for quartz watch. At least are having to common sense of putting grease on everything else rather than ample lambing the whole thing and putting oil everywhere else.

Then you do get the technical specs it runs on almost no power and as long as the voltage is above 1.25 V it should run. Then if you continue farther into the document it should take you only 45 minutes the service this watch obviously not including time running it through the cleaning machine. It does tell how to clean the rotor but I try to keep that off for the pivots you want everything on this watch spotlessly clean and I always worry about that on the pivots.

So other than being astronomically expensive yet a nice detailed tech sheet it's a relatively simple movement to do and getting parts can be an interesting challenge but you have other model numbers that use the same components. Because they're all the same movement basically which is helpful when you're trying to find stuff

 

https://calibercorner.com/ebel-caliber-157/

 

157p.pdf

[Endeavor]

Thanks a lot John ....... where would this forum be without you !?

A quick glans through the tech-sheet, it doesn't seem to be a complicated movement. I do remember the rotor from the quartz movements I ever took apart, extremely magnetic and you don't want to have any metal debris around.

Time flies and my wife & I must have had a senior-moment. Checking the receipt, turns out that the watch was bought in 2002, and only the universe knows how long it has been laying in the shop? Suddenly we are now talking about an at least 20-years old movement without having had a service!

Perhaps that's what causes the watch to slow down. I don't have the fancy equipment to measure the currents, so I'm in the blind there. The battery has been changed out twice for a fresh one, my wife knows that. Now, I guess best thing to do is to let the watch run and if it is slow again, it's not the battery and a service may be the solution.

Regarding the required quartz-oil, that's another discussion and to has be sorted.

It's also nice the know alternatives (brands) to search for in case something goes wrong !

Tanks again John !

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

14 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Regarding the required quartz-oil, that's another discussion and to has be sorted.

I went back to the technical disk of information or in this case folder and one of their other watches they recommended 9010. Then I realized that there's a lot of mechanical watches in this folder not helpful although was looking at one really nice in mechanical watch at least these people grasped good oil choices 9020 for the watch a grease and 9415 none of this epilam stuff and using oils all over the keyless parts.

I do know that in the case of quartz watches ideally it would be nice to measure the current consumption. But Jeff Davila measure a fraction of microamp. This way it know if you do you servicing properly or if the lubrication you use is not right. Then yes if you use the wrong lubrication I've had this experience in the past the watch comes back. Or your case somebody's very unhappy.

So I'm too lazy to track down the doctors tech sheets but I know you have figure out which one is closer to 9010 and viscosity and just go minimalistic on the pivots it doesn't need much.  then the grease you normally you should work just fine on the watch.

 

[Endeavor]

If I've to purchase a bottle of Moebius 9010, or the Moebius 9020, just for her watch, that's a small price to pay. I can compare the Dr.Tillwich 1-3 with the Moebius 9010 / 9020 but at least the Moebius 9010/9020 are a full synthetic whereas the Dr.Tillwich 1-3 is partial synthetic.

The 5057 tech-sheet calls for Moebius 9020, which I understood is your favored oil as well, so finally I may joint the Moebius group

Which would be your choice for this movement; 9010 or 9020?

[JohnR725]

8 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

9010 or 9020?

you know this is a lubrication question? You really think it's going to be that simple I would recommend 9000. as that's my favorite oil the use on quartz watches.

oh I attached bonus technical documents. One of their mechanical watches this is why find lubrication fascinating. Notice the lubrication's they're using including for the balance pivots. So based on the usefulness of 9020 that's what I would recommend.

 

12p.pdf tinf_9000_en_0.pdf

[Endeavor]

Interesting, if I compare the viscosities between Moebius 9000 and Dr.Tillwich 1-3, left Moebius 9000 and to the right Dr.Tillwich 1-3:

 

 

Perhaps a fresh bottle of Dr.Tillwich 1-3 may be just fine too ?

Edited May 31, 2023 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Perhaps a fresh bottle of Dr.Tillwich may be fine too ?

as much as I love my 9020 the quartz oil is thinner. Then in the past there were some Seiko in particular watches where whatever they were lubricated with probably 9010 don't remember had issues and the quartz oil worked perfect.  I guess there's only two ways to find out your bill a tell with current consumption which you can't do or let's see how long the watch runs. I is a little better viscosity than the 9020. so yes it would be a viable option.

[Nucejoe]

17 hours ago, Endeavor said:

 

17 hours ago, Endeavor said:

drain the battery faster?

Moisture damage to the circuitry.   Irrepairable.