Ratchet Wheel Issue

[Gary]

Hi All!

I have a ratchet wheel screw that is being a booger to remove. I've tried everything and the list follows.

1. Tried both left and right turns

2. Soaking 2 days in WD40

3. Soaked in lighter fluid

4. Soaked in möbius 8200 2 days

5. Placed 3days Ina small ultrsinice jewelry cleaner

6. Heated on a hot flat plate 25 minutes

7. Tapping the screw head with a small screwdriver and soft hammer

8. Sweet talking and the promise of a better life!

Any thoughts or advice is always as always appreciated!,

Thank you all for your patience with my never ending issues!

Gary

[Geo]

Try heating it directly with an electric soldering iron.

Before doing this, file off any solder on the end of the bit to make sure it does not transfer to the screw head. Once you have cleaned the bit, switch the iron on and leave for at least two minutes to ensure it is right up to temperature. Now hold it on the screw head for another two minutes to allow the heat to soak into the screw before trying to unscrew it.

What movement are you working on Gary?

[fjseal]

You mention that you have tried turning the screw both ways, but it may be worth trying again. I recently had an AS 984 movement whose ratchet wheel screw was the same as the crown wheel; turned clockwise to undo. I was lucky that it wasn't too tight.

Best of luck.

 

Frank.

[MrBeat]

Geos method is a good tried & tested way of loosening a pesky stuck screw :)

 

Some of my methods are risky but have worked for me so far. With movements stripped down as far as possible >

 

1) Place movement in freshly boiled water ( from kettle ) for 10 minutes, dry off with alcohol, then place in freezer for 24 hrs. Repeat if need be, the contraction and expansion can loosed the seal. BE WARNED this can crack jewels so there is risk.

 

2) Place movement in small glass jar ( small jam jar will do ), then into the jar cover in clock oil or similar. Bring a pan of shallow water to a low simmer ( lowest heat possible not boiling ) and place the jar in the pan. Gently shake and swirl the jar every few minutes. Continue for 20-30 minutes. Remove and allow to cool, clean in warm soapy water, dry off and retry undoing screw.

 

 

The second method is more gentle and by heating the oil gently it expands the metal allowing the oil to seep in and loosen the screw. If you have somewhere the jar can sit in a warm place for long period this can help over time.

 

I wish you luck and take my methods with caution, sometimes screws are just to far gone and will never be loosened.

[Gary]

Thank you All!

I don't have a soldering iron but can tomorrow probably. I've searched the site and tried everything but your suggestions. I will let you know how it goes.

Geo-- I'm working on an AS 984 an old Helbros I picked up for 3.00 and it needed a mainspring. I posted earlier in the week about a mainspring size. The one in it was a 1.4 and Ranftt listed it as a 1.70, I believe.

Thank you!

[Geo]

Hi Gary, looking at the movement, there is no indication whether the screw is left to right handed. The one good thing, the screw has a nice large flat head that should give good heat transmission if you use a soldering iron. When you clean the solder off the bit, make sure you file a good flat on it to allow maximum contact with the screw.

[seang]

Hi Gary, it sounds like you are doing all the right things, the heat suggestions are good, all I'd add is make sure you use as wide a screwdriver as possible, the blade should extend as close to the edges of the slot as possible to provide the maximum moment advantage, reshape the end of the screwdriver if its too thick to fit the slot at the necessary width.

 

Also, thinking about it, none of the fluids you mentioned are proper penetrating oils AFAIK, WD40 for example doesn't penetrate as well as a proper penetrating fluid, the lighter fluid may well penetrate but may not be much good as a lubricant once its in there?? - I'm kinda winging this part of the thread, very happy to be told I'm wrong :-)

 

A quick test on an AS 1130 movement shows the ratchet wheel screw loosens to the right and the barrel/mainwheel screw loosens to the left - I know is a different calibre to yours but its the only AS movement I have to hand

 

good luck

 

Sean

[Geo]

Further to what Seang has said; If all of the other screws have come out without any bother or evidence of rust, it is highly likely the it is a left hand thread and you have now over tightened in your effort to unscrew it.

[canthus]

I have used BBQ lighter fuel (which is basically de-odorized kerosene/paraffin) as a penetrating oil.  It is very thin and has some lubricity to help removal.  For more lubricity just mix a very small amount of M-9000 or 9010 or 8000 (or any thin oil) into it.   You could use ordinary paraffin or diesel fuel (but this has a few more 'nasties' in it and has greater solvency so keep away from rubber or painted areas).

[Geo]

Some good ideas there Canthus. This is the best proprietary penetrating fluid I have come across, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Plusgas-809-10-Lubricating-Oil-Tin-And-Spout-250Ml-07660704897-Gasplus-/111601414317?hash=item19fbf670adI have been using it for years when working on old bikes and cars.

[Marc]

Reading through this thread I get just the slightest feeling that there is some confusion over nomenclature and it's important not to be mistaken.

 

The ratchet wheel is the wheel with the square hole that is attached to the barrel arbor, and against which the click usually operates. This wheel usually has a right handed thread.

 

The wheel that often has either a left handed thread or two off centre screws (right handed) is the crown wheel, which is the wheel that turns the ratchet wheel.

 

Please note the use of italics here as it is an area of design that does vary and these screws should always be treated as self destructing until you know which way to turn them.

 

The reason for having a non-standard arrangement for the crown wheel screw is that the screw does not rotate with the crown wheel. If the crown wheel rotates anti-clockwise (as in the AS984), and the crown wheel screw had a right handed thread, then it's possible that torque could be transferred to the screw that would undo it, hence a left handed thread. 

 

The ratchet wheel screw does rotate with the wheel so there is no risk of a loosening torque. As such a standard right handed thread can be used which is handy as this allows the use of a screw driver to wind the barrel a little when testing the free running of the train when reassembling without having to install the keyless works first.

 

If the problem screw on this 984 is the crown wheel screw then I would be inclined to think that it is a lefty, if it is the ratchet wheel screw then my money would be on right handed.

 

That being said, I have had left handed threads in the barrel arbor, and right handed threads in the crown wheel, just to keep me on my toes.

 

Proceed with care. Good luck.

[canthus]

Used PlusGas myself.  Looking at the specs it is described as 'petroleum distillate + mineral oil'.  The distillate is in fact regular kerosine (paraffin).  So BBQ Fuel (better spec than regular kerosine, ie cleaner) + lube as I suggested is spot on !!

[anilv]

Hi Gary,

 

Cant add much to the above but using heat is a good way to start. Can you remove the barrel bridge with the barrel attached? if yes then try to apply gentle heat to the arbour itself.. soldering iron is good..the idea is to get a bit of expansion on the arbour. You will need to find a way to support the barrel bridge when you try to unscrew the ratchet whee screw as the bridge is easily bent. 

 

Dont exert too much force.. watch screws are not designed to stand to much torque, especially these flat headed ones. Look at one of these from the side and you  will see just how little metal is holding the head of the screw on.

 

FWIW, I'm currently working on a citizen handwind... both the crown wheel and ratchet wheel have left hand threads. Both screws have no indication that they are left-threaded.

 

Anil

[Gary]

Thank you for all the assistance! I will be working on this pesky thing this week. I have BBQ fluid and may give that a shot? To clarify it is the ratchet wheel as it is attached to the barrel. I will let you know as soon as I make some progress. I've only had a couple of these give me problems but this one will not give in one direction or the other!

Thank you again and stay tuned for more watch action!

[seang]

The nomenclature confusion is my fault, sorry for the muddle