Difficulties getting parts treated with Moebius 9504 clean

[VWatchie]

I've written about this in a different thread, but I feel the topic warrants a thread of its own. I hope no one minds! So...

I just re-serviced a movement where I used Moebius 9504 synthetic grease for the keyless works, etc.

When inspecting the parts coming out of my cleaning machine I noticed that the parts that had been lubricated with 9504 had a "wax-like" surface, especially in the hard-to-reach sections. The only way I was able to remove this "wax" was to manually soak the parts in a degreaser (Horosolv) and brush them off with a paintbrush.

Generally, I feel hand cleaning is too much work for me (unless necessary) so I think I will want to return to either Moebius 9501 or Molykote DX Paste (which I've only heard of) as it's less expensive.

I have two questions:

Has anyone else noticed this "wax-like" surface on cleaned parts treated with 9504? For cleaning I use my ELMA cleaning machine, with ELMA RED 9:1 (max 10 min) in the 1st jar, demineralized water (approx. 1.5 min) in the 2nd jar, and IPA (approx. 2 min) in the 3rd jar. Finally, I dry the parts in the heating chamber for about two minutes.

Would Molykote DX behave the same way as Moebius 9504 in this respect? The reason I'm asking is that I saw the sentence "Very good resistance to the washing out" on Cousins page for this product. I'm not exactly sure about what that sentence means but it makes me associate it with the "wax-like" surface problem.

[clockboy]

I don’t use a ultrasonic I use a watch cleaning machine (Pearl, Janta) and use L&R fluids and every part comes out spotless.. It might be the Elma Red is just not strong enough.

Edited April 9, 2023 by clockboy

[RichardHarris123]

I would be interested in the options of Molykote DX as I've heard it's a good alternative to Moebius 9504.

[GuyMontag]

 

I thought I remember hearing that one of the reasons folks don't use Molykote DX is that it is difficult to clean off.

 

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

When inspecting the parts coming out of my cleaning machine I noticed that the parts that had been lubricated with 9504 had a "wax-like" surface, especially in the hard-to-reach sections. The only way I was able to remove this "wax" was to manually soak the parts in a degreaser (Horosolv) and brush them off with a paintbrush.

I'm curious what that looks like, you don't happen to have a photo do you?

Edited April 9, 2023 by GuyMontag

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, clockboy said:

Elma Red is just not strong enough

what I'm wondering is this is a water-based cleaner could it be that a water-based cleaner doesn't clean as well as a solvent-based cleaner?

15 hours ago, VWatchie said:

The only way I was able to remove this "wax" was to manually soak the parts in a degreaser (Horosolv) and brush them off with a paintbrush.

then what is the definition of wax?

then I snipped out something which is the interesting properties of 9504. So basically it's the same bases 9501 except it has the boron 10% which may be what you're seeing if it's white. In other words it's a white high pressure lubricant and perhaps it looks like wax although it seems like it should look more like a powder? But it also looks like I need to improve my reading skill because I highlighted something else yes 9501 is the basic but looks like they added something else in in addition to the boron.

So is the wax really that bad? In other words I like the lubrication because it seems to work really well in very high friction situations like American 18 size pocket watches and it seems like a waxy substance that stays behind even after cleaning is actually perhaps the desirable thing it means the lubrication's going to stay where you ever you put it

but I'm sure I've cleaned watches that I've used the 9504 before and I don't remember any grease lingering behind. I'll have to remember the next time I clean a watch to smear a small quantity on a plate and see how well it comes off.

13 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

I thought I remember hearing that one of the reasons folks don't use Molykote DX is that it is difficult to clean off.

I've heard the same thing unfortunately don't remember where I've seen that.

 

[VWatchie]

18 hours ago, clockboy said:

L&R fluids and every part comes out spotless.. It might be the Elma Red is just not strong enough.

Yes, that could be so. I don't use the L&R fluids because it's expensive, I've heard it has a strong odour, and I have poor ventilation. Also, ELMA RED 9:1 works well, but I usually still have to go over the jewels manually with a good degreaser such as Horosolv. And pegging I guess you can never circumvent irrespective of the cleaning solvent used!?

16 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

I thought I remember hearing that one of the reasons folks don't use Molykote DX is that it is difficult to clean off.

That's very useful information so I guess I'll be continuing using Moebius 9501 rather than Molykote DX. Thanks!

16 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

I'm curious what that looks like, you don't happen to have a photo do you?

I'm afraid not. I cleaned it off as soon as I saw it. Anyway, it's like a thin white coating.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

could it be that a water-based cleaner doesn't clean as well as a solvent-based cleaner?

That's a very interesting question. If anyone has the answer I'd be very interested as well. I guess if water-based cleaners were as efficient as solvent-based cleaners we'd probably only have water-based cleaners as they're less expensive.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

In other words it's a white high pressure lubricant and perhaps it looks like wax although it seems like it should look more like a powder?

Yes, perhaps powder is a better word. So, it looks like a thin white powdery och wax-like coating

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

it seems like a waxy substance that stays behind even after cleaning is actually perhaps the desirable thing it means the lubrication's going to stay where you ever you put it

I would agree. It indicates Moebius 9504 is a really efficient grease not spreading. The fact that it's difficult to clean off is just an inconvenience.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I'll have to remember the next time I clean a watch to smear a small quantity on a plate and see how well it comes off.

As I remember it, the white coating was mostly prevalent where friction had occurred, like between the yoke and the sides of the groove in the sliding pinion. I believe those tiny white boron dots are smeared out when subjected to friction between two metal surfaces. So, perhaps smearing some on a plate and manually subjecting it to some friction with another piece of metal before cleaning. Anyway, it would be interesting to know so please remember to report back. Thanks!

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I've heard the same thing unfortunately don't remember where I've seen that.

So, that makes two of you have heard the same thing. That is, Molykote DX is difficult to clean off.

Edited April 10, 2023 by VWatchie

[clockboy]

As far as odour is concerned I found the L&R the least pungent compared to Elma. I only wish I had a nice large workspace but I don’t so ventilation is important but items being cleaned must come out grease and dirt free. 

 

[JohnR725]

30 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

friction had occurred

yes in the back of my mind I was wondering about that. In other words the high pressure part has embedded itself onto the metal where it is very resistant from coming off which is exactly what we want with the minor inconvenience of it not coming off in the cleaning process

31 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I've heard it has a strong odour

typically any of the ammonia -based cleaning fluids will have a smell to them. For instance the L&R clock cleaning solution that's water-based. The first time I opened up the half gallon that I got unaware of just how strong that ammonia is. Fortunately I don't use it very often and if I had to mix it now I would definitely go outside. But I do know they make non-ammonia-based solvent cleaners which might be more appropriate. There is of course the problem of a solvent evaporates and whether you can smell it or not it's not good for your health.

But it does bring up an interesting problem. Cleaning at least as defined in an Omega document I have the 50s is a process. Another wars the first jar with cleaning fluid is not considered an absolute of cleaning and all the rest of  rinsing but the entire process is labeled as cleaning. So I'm wondering with the water-based cleaner whether the cleaner is an absolute of cleaning and the water-based rinse is only there to remove the cleaning product as opposed to a continuation of cleaning with solvents that would dissolve things like lubrication for instance.

Oh and if you had endless supply of money some of the modern such as Elma cleaning machines come with filters to allow you to run them in a shop so the activated carbon is supposed to remove all the bad stuff of course the problem becomes of Jessica's we can't smell it does it actually mean it's been removed but in a case they come with expensive activated carbon filtering units to remove bad environmental things or even their less expensive machine has an exhaust hose so you could shove that out a window.

 

[HectorLooi]

When I come across any stubborn grease or dried lubricants, I use a dental microbrush dipped in Goo-Gone. It has worked like a charm.

BTW Horosolv seems to be benzine.

[rehajm]

I’ve also found parts cleaned in L&R are spotless…and there is a very strong odor but it dissipates over time. I open the jug and prepare the clean/rinse jars outdoors…

21 hours ago, VWatchie said:

For cleaning I use my ELMA cleaning machine, with ELMA RED 9:1 (max 10 min) in the 1st jar, demineralized water (approx. 1.5 min) in the 2nd jar, and IPA (approx. 2 min) in the 3rd jar.

Have to tried longer rinse times?

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Have to tried longer rinse times?

I suspect that's not going to help because he's using water for a rinse.

although I was wondering if in addition to the water rinse you followed up with Suprol Pro. But  I'm not sure where you get anything with that because when I looked up the cleaning product it says water rinse and instead of the alcohol which is now being used you could use this instead.  I was kinda hoping the suggestion of  cleaner water this and then the alcohol but that's not the recommending thought that you couldn't do that I just don't know how much cleaning it's going to do..

https://www.cousinsuk.com/search?searchTerm=Elma Suprol Rinse

 

 

 

[Jon]

It appears that the process of using a water based cleaner, then water, then IPA only has a cleaning effect in the first jar. The demineralised water acts as a rinse, then the IPA gets rid of any water left, so only a relatively small time is spent actually removing any dirt grease and residue.

Everyone will probably have a different method, and fluids, but the result is what is key. I'm of the thinking, 'more is more', so I use L and R #111 cleaner in the first jar for 10 minutes.

It is one of the best cleaners out there and many professional watchmakers I know use it. It isn't cheap, but it is when you work out how many movements you can clean with it. £1 to £2 per movement using L and R cleaner and rinse. I then go through jar two with L and R No.3 rinse for 10 minutes, then the last rinse jar for 10 minutes, so in effect there is 30 minutes of cleaning going on, rather than 10. The ammonia adds greatly to the efficacy of the cleaner. I've never had any problems removing 9504. The only problem I have come across once in a while is removing epilame from cap jewels and chatons, as that can stay in place after a cleaning cycle, so I clean them by hand and check them under a microscope before oiling. Sometimes there is residue left and they will need to be cleaned again, but that doesn't happen often. I'm guessing that many don't epilame their caps and chatons. Somewhere like Christopher Ward watches, they do epilame those parts, so watch out, pardon the pun

[rehajm]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I suspect that's not going to help because he's using water for a rinse.

If that's the case OP may be experiencing a fatal flaw of the Elma recommended Elma Red/water/IPA routine. We're told by the manufacturer the wash/rinse products are meant to work together and post-clean hand scrubbing provides much opportunity for contamination. If the routine can't clean up a common lubricant...

23 hours ago, clockboy said:

It might be the Elma Red is just not strong enough.

Disappointing as I've been prepared to try it...

[canthus]

The problem with moly, graphite, silicone and the like is that they are designed to 'plate out' on the surfaces so that should the oil part of the lubricant break down, then the plated 'dry lubricant' remains to protect the surface from friction damage.

As a result they are difficult to remove without 'mechanical means' (ie brushing etc),or aggressive chemicals.

In lube manufacturing plants they either avoid using these dry lubes, or have dedicated pipework, tanking etc to avoid cross contamination and cleaning problems.    As an aside, similar applies to dyes being used!

This maybe why some residue remains after normal cleaning.

Also, although the plating is microscopic it can take-up some of the clearance, especially in fine ball/roller bearings and cause problems through the clearance now being too tight and cause skidding wear of the ball/roller or overheating!!!   eg autowind rotor ball bearings.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Jon said:

so I use L and R #111 cleaner in the first jar for 10 minutes.

we've discussed this before on the group and I have personal experience with this. Oh and if you really want to do a good job of cleaning elevate the temperature for those 10 minutes. The problem with the cleaning fluids are the ammonia it's wonderful for making things bright and shiny but at a certain point in time it will start to etch the metal if you notice your cleaning fluid turning a blue-green color that's the metal it's been etched out of the watch plate. So it be much better if you can lower your cleaning time down to about five minutes approximately.

my experience was at school when the machine had a timer up to a maximum of 10 minutes so of course I sent it for 10 minutes and because the machine used vacuum tubes to generate the ultrasonic energy intended to get warm anyway so I'm sure the solution was warm and it was really a pretty blue color with frosted watch plates.

So yes it's a beautiful cleaning product but just be cautious of going over and we don't have an exact time. When I was at school the cleaning machine was taped oversea couldn't go beyond four minutes because every cleaning watches all day long. So I usually try not to go over about five minutes and definitely do not elevate the temperature.

 

[GuyMontag]

Is there a rule of thumb for how many watches you can clean with an ammoniated solution before having to change the solution? I know there are  variables, like how dirty the movements are, but in general how many watches can you run through before needing fresh solution?

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, canthus said:

The problem with moly, graphite, silicone and the like is that they are designed to 'plate out' on the surfaces so that should the oil part of the lubricant break down, then the plated 'dry lubricant' remains to protect the surface from friction damage.

so in other words if you wash your watch and you still have residual dry lubricant it is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. It's supposed to stay wherever you put it and apparently that would even include trying to clean it off.

oh and then there is the other minor little issue even if we do visibly clean it off is it still embedded into the metal? Personally for me that makes a very happy because I want to lubrication to stay in some very harsh environments like an 18 size American pocket watch where there is a lot of metal on metal and I'd like it to stay forever but will it in bed itself into the metal and conceivably stay forever?

one of the reasons I bring this up is I've heard of examples of where it was an airplane components where a rod had the slide through something and a call it would grab and hold it in place. So had the slide but had to hold when it was supposed to be and my understanding was if you use something like  well basically any of the dry lubricants mentioned up above they would have to toss the part. Because the dry lubricant would embed itself into the metal and could not be removed and if it was removed it would change the dimensions so they would have to toss the part just because of inappropriate lubrication. Which doesn't affect us at all because as I said I want my lubrication to stay wherever I put it

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I was wondering if in addition to the water rinse you followed up with Suprol Pro.

I've tried that stuff and was disappointed. It did in no way improve the end result (compared to IPA), was extremely expensive, and smelled like death. Yes, a strong word, but it was really unbearable. Also, with my poor ventilation, I sensed the "narcotic effect" it is declared to have. Not pleasant!

So, why not do the rinsing outdoors, you may ask? Well, where I live it is not unusual for temperatures to drop below -10 degrees Celsius (sometimes even colder) during the winter and that would create a bunch of other problems.

[JohnR725]

33 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I've tried that stuff and was disappointed. It did in no way improve the end result (compared to IPA), was extremely expensive, and smelled like death.

when I read how you're supposed to use it it was problematic as to whether would help or not. You have to use water to rinse off your water-based cleaner since not go help there and doing a solvent rinse after your water-based cleaner I really don't think is what you need to be doing. So if the isopropyl alcohol works it works.

34 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

"narcotic effect"

that's not the only thing that we use they hairspring rinse I have at work that is labeled environmental a friendly smells like death. For one of my coworkers the used it to clean one of the display cases because it had tape on it yes it had a very undesirable health affect. Say unfortunately a lot of the solvents we use are very bad for your health. Even if they do say they're environmentally friendly

[Jon]

23 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

Is there a rule of thumb for how many watches you can clean with an ammoniated solution before having to change the solution? I know there are  variables, like how dirty the movements are, but in general how many watches can you run through before needing fresh solution?

There are many variables, as you say, but if the movements are fairly well looked after, lets say they had all been serviced every 5 to 6 years, then they aren't really going to be minging dirty, so I would estimate around 30 movements can be cleaned for every Elma jar of L and R cleaning fluid used. You might clean more depending on how dirty the fluid gets.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

so I would estimate around 30 movements can be cleaned for every Elma jar of L and R cleaning fluid used. You might clean more depending on how dirty the fluid gets.

I know the Elma machine at work as a counter well for just about everything in the machine of when stuff needs to be changed but there's definitely a counter on when to change the fluid. But there's also an override button which says remind me later. And then of course we can push the button again and only when it starts looking like maybe it's not cleaning the watch is properly do we think about changing the fluid. Which we don't actually keep a schedule but I would say it takes quite a long time before we have to change the fluid but then were not being watches necessarily every single day either. Then there's people like me that are cleaning a vintage pocket watches and the other watchmaker who can be cleaning a Rolex watch so you probably clean a dozen Rolex watches to one of my pocket watches. Or maybe two dozen Rolex watches versus one pocket watch depends on how bad the watches though

so unfortunately there may not be a magical when it should be done because even when the fluid itself looks dirty it may still be able to clean as long as the rinse can reduce the concentration of debris from the cleaner down to nothing. I guess basically when your watch doesn't look clean you should start changing fluids which is basically what we do it ignore the counter on the machine

[GuyMontag]

Good stuff, thanks. Up until the last time I changed my cleaning fluids I hadn't been tracking how many movements I was cleaning before I had to change fluids but since I did start tracking, I'm now at 10 movements and was wondering if it's time, but I guess I probably still can go another 10+. I do tend to preclean any non-shellacked parts that are really dirty in IPA in the ultrasonic.