Is there an etachron stud twisting tool that fits seiko studs?

[Birbdad]

I'm trying to troubleshoot a seiko nh36 and the only lead i got is a possible non centered hairspring in the regulator arms so I guess it's time to dive into that whole etachron thing and see if i can figure this out.

I unboxed my unused horotec etachron tool only to find it's too damn narrow to fit the seiko studs. Very annoying, waste of 30 bucks/into the tool drawer for a later use. Considering how expensive these are it seems like the other is the bergeon and i'd rather not buy it to find the same thing. Does anybody have one of these tools they can confirm will fit these wider seiko studs?

Second question do people ever just use tweezers for this? 

[HectorLooi]

There are several YouTube videos showing the use of tweezers to remove the stud.

The method I learnt from my mentor is to modify a cheap screwdriver blade and sharpen it into a spear point, with a rhomboid cross section. This will allow it to work on stud holders of different sizes. Just wedge it into the gap behind the stud and rotate it gentle to pop out the stud. You might want to put some rodico to prevent the stud from shooting out and distorting the hairspring any further.

[mikepilk]

Have a read of this thread messed-up-a-seiko-6r35-regulation

There's a video which explains removal and adjustment https://youtu.be/ExfFlYFAffg

[watchweasol]

Hi Hector. Do yo have a picture of the tool so that others may be able to create one for themselves. A picture is worth a thousand words.  Thanks.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

There are several YouTube videos showing the use of tweezers to remove the stud.

The method I learnt from my mentor is to modify a cheap screwdriver blade and sharpen it into a spear point, with a rhomboid cross section. This will allow it to work on stud holders of different sizes. Just wedge it into the gap behind the stud and rotate it gentle to pop out the stud. You might want to put some rodico to prevent the stud from shooting out and distorting the hairspring any further.

Yeah i'd love to see it. A great guy here sent me how he makes them, but it requires grinding equipment i don't have. The tool i'm talking about are the stud twisting tools that fit over the top so you can turn them like a screwdriver. not the ones for removing them. I have this one here and it does not fit the seiko studs as they're too wide. https://www.esslinger.com/etachron-watch-movement-adjustment-key-tool/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAnsqdBhCGARIsAAyjYjRVMy1O3Hcy2NwTDGmKkt4siEmUnAVMOTDJN7ql3Fjx4DLVEAqeYfwaAvreEALw_wcB

That said i'm pretty proud of myself. I opened up the regulator pins with tweezers and saw indeed that the hairspring wasn't centered. SInce i'm impatient i just decided to go for twisting the stud to center the hairspring with tweezers and a microscope and got the thing centered pretty quick. Not near as scary as i thought this would be haha. 

Sadly it did not fix my issue

36 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Have a read of this thread messed-up-a-seiko-6r35-regulation

There's a video which explains removal and adjustment https://youtu.be/ExfFlYFAffg

Yup that's the vid i watched and he's the one that suggested my problem lied with doing what's in that vid. He posts on thewatchmaking subreddit and he's so helpful. I also just realized he has a tutorial on how to make one of these stud tools i need so i'm gonna get on that.

I was at least able to confirm that my hairspring is fine, once i centered it and moved the regulator arm there was no change in the dimensions of the coils so it appears to be perfect.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Birbdad

[HectorLooi]

This is what I use for removing the stud. 

For twisting the stud, I just use my hairspring tweezers. 

[Birbdad]

13 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

This is what I use for removing the stud. 

For twisting the stud, I just use my hairspring tweezers. 

Ok so you use tweezers too, I"m doing that too and it actually works fine tbh. 

Since i've never done this before how do you know when you've got the regulator pins closed enough? Should it be not allowing the hairspring to bounce back and forth at all in the pins or just a minimal amount? the only good vid i've seen on the subject was posted in this thread but he doesn't mention when it's closed enough.

 

[JohnFrum]

Have no idea if any fit but AliExpress has three of different sizes for 20 USD

 

Watch Movement Stud Balance Screwdriver Watches Repair Tool for Citizen Women and ETA 2828 2834 2836

Edited January 2, 2023 by JohnFrum

[Birbdad]

Just now, JohnFrum said:

Have no idea if any fit but AliExpress has three of different sizes for 20 USD

 

 

Oh interesting. i'll have to get out my calipers and measure. Thanks bud.

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Since i've never done this before how do you know when you've got the regulator pins closed enough?

Good question. Everything I've read just say close the gap until a small gap is visible. The effects might be visible on a timegrapher though.

Probably @jdm or @JohnR725 would be able to give a better answer.

[Birbdad]

5 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Good question. Everything I've read just say close the gap until a small gap is visible. The effects might be visible on a timegrapher though.

Probably @jdm or @JohnR725 would be able to give a better answer.

I found a vid in another thread that's a bit infuriatingly blurry but it looks like you close it till there's just a tiny TINY bit of wiggle in the hairspring. I did that with my tweezers and set the rate and this did seem to take care of much of my positional variance problems. I could maybe close it a hair more but i don't want to risk over cranking it. 

Well iv'e been dreading really getting into hairspring stuff and learning the etachron and it really wasnt' that bad. I guess next stop is reshape some of these collapsed hairsprings i got laying around.

[HectorLooi]

There is no getting around hairspring work, so you might as well bite the bullet and start now.

A stereo microscope really helps.

Start with some scrap hairsprings first. Start simple, don't try to disentangle a ball of noodles.

I find that most hairspring work is on the endcurve part, which might be the most important and most critical part of the spring. 

Good luck.

[Birbdad]

4 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

There is no getting around hairspring work, so you might as well bite the bullet and start now.

A stereo microscope really helps.

Start with some scrap hairsprings first. Start simple, don't try to disentangle a ball of noodles.

I find that most hairspring work is on the endcurve part, which might be the most important and most critical part of the spring. 

Good luck.

Yeah i got the microscope, i gotta make a needler tool i guess. I have a number 5 dumont pair of tweezers. Are those small enough for hairspring work?

[HectorLooi]

Dumont #5 are straight tweezers. I prefer curved tips like the #6 or #7. When working under a microscope, straight tweezers tend to block the view or get obstructed by the lens or ringlight.

When bending the spring, it's important to keep the edge of the tweezers square with the spring or the spring will not lie flat on its plane. It will end up with a 3D curve, which would be harder to correct.

[JohnFrum]

Btw, AliX also has this copy of the Bergeon tool in glass and aluminum for 11 USD

2 hole sizes to accommodate the balance wheel

”1pc Hairspring Holder Watch repair Accessories Watch Hair Springs Holding Tool Supporting Metal Base Hole Diameter 3.5mm/4.5mm”

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Birbdad said:

how do you know when you've got the regulator pins closed enough?

I would say as close as possible  without causing an issue when moving the timing regulator. Any gap between the pins should remain constant along the terminal curve. What I've noticed if the gap is too large the timing can fluctuate slowing down when the active length of the hairspring extends back to the stud. That seems more apparent as the amplitude drops as the hairspring spends less time against either of the pins.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would say as close as possible  without causing an issue when moving the timing regulator. Any gap between the pins should remain constant along the terminal curve. What I've noticed if the gap is too large the timing can fluctuate slowing down when the active length of the hairspring extends back to the stud. That seems more apparent as the amplitude drops as the hairspring spends less time against either of the pins.

If this was an over coil hairspring then the rule is as tight as possible as long as they hairspring can still slide between the pins. On a flat hairspring you have to have a tiny bit of breathing room but not very much. I think the suggestion might have been if you had a another piece of hairspring and shoved it in so basically at half of the new hairspring on either side that would be the most but I suspect that this number can vary.

And yes you definitely need to follow the terminal curve that was last week's fun at work. My boss likes to have a service of regulating  watches to being just like Rolex watches at least to please the timing machine. So he had played with the Seiko hairspring everything was perfect except the raids and then when he move the regulator it was all screwed up because? This is what happens when you don't follow and have a terminal curve

Then I've attached an image the importance of things being right. So yes if you open up the pins too much in the amplitude drops at some point in time you get some really bizarre timekeeping. This also becomes very obvious on an over quill watch for that spacing is even more critical you'll see the watch being really slow as the amplitude drops you might even think you have some other problem and it's just a regulator pin problem.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Oh interesting. i'll have to get out my calipers and measure. Thanks bud.

Its possible you could make these from a spare driver blade Col.

[Birbdad]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would say as close as possible  without causing an issue when moving the timing regulator. Any gap between the pins should remain constant along the terminal curve. What I've noticed if the gap is too large the timing can fluctuate slowing down when the active length of the hairspring extends back to the stud. That seems more apparent as the amplitude drops as the hairspring spends less time against either of the pins.

Yeah one of the things in my check i did was open the regulator gate and check that by moving the regulator arm it's full length. Was pleasantly surprised to see it was perfect. I just had to recenter it the hairspring in the pins with the stud but once i did that it tracked perfectly. I definitely have more confidence about getting into hairspring work now.

 

 

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

If this was an over coil hairspring then the rule is as tight as possible as long as they hairspring can still slide between the pins. On a flat hairspring you have to have a tiny bit of breathing room but not very much. I think the suggestion might have been if you had a another piece of hairspring and shoved it in so basically at half of the new hairspring on either side that would be the most but I suspect that this number can vary.

And yes you definitely need to follow the terminal curve that was last week's fun at work. My boss likes to have a service of regulating  watches to being just like Rolex watches at least to please the timing machine. So he had played with the Seiko hairspring everything was perfect except the raids and then when he move the regulator it was all screwed up because? This is what happens when you don't follow and have a terminal curve

Then I've attached an image the importance of things being right. So yes if you open up the pins too much in the amplitude drops at some point in time you get some really bizarre timekeeping. This also becomes very obvious on an over quill watch for that spacing is even more critical you'll see the watch being really slow as the amplitude drops you might even think you have some other problem and it's just a regulator pin problem.

 

WOW that makes so much sense with what i was seeing. I had heard that closing the regulator pins lowers amplitude and one of the few professional vids i've seen on teh subject the guy puts the regulator arm in the neutral position which gives high rate and then he closes the regulator pins and uses that to lower amplitude to a certain point. 

When i opened the the regulator pins all the way my rate plummeted probably because of what my amplitude was. I'm assuming the effects of this vary from movement to movement. This is all super fascinating and thanks for this graphic. Very informative!

 

 

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its possible you could make these from a spare driver blade Col.

Yeah i found a vid that goes through it with just a hand file. I gotta get some stuff.  Tweezers actually work pretty well. I seem to have a steady hand but for the future i would prefer to have a decent tool

Edited January 2, 2023 by Birbdad

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

When i opened the the regulator pins all the way my rate plummeted probably because of what my amplitude was. I'm assuming the effects of this vary from movement to movement. This is all super fascinating and thanks for this graphic. Very informative!

The hs has what is called an active length, this is the point at which the hs is beating at its required bph to give the watch accurate time keeping. The active length providing the hs has been vibrated and formed correctly would be found somewhere along the terminal curve. Ideally midway, that active length is held at the point of the regulator pins. So when adjusting the regulator arm that active length moves to become longer thereby lowering the rate and slowing the timekeeping  or becomes shorter thereby increasing its bph and speeding up the timekeeping. When the pins are too wide and not touching or rarely touching the hs, then what ? The active length is extended back to the stud, so it is now at its furthest point and the slowest it can go at its current ampitude. 

[Birbdad]

34 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The hs has what is called an active length, this is the point at which the hs is beating at its required bph to give the watch accurate time keeping. The active length providing the hs has been vibrated and formed correctly would be found somewhere along the terminal curve. Ideally midway, that active length is held at the point of the regulator pins. So when adjusting the regulator arm that active length moves to become longer thereby lowering the rate and slowing the timekeeping  or becomes shorter thereby increasing its bph and speeding up the timekeeping. When the pins are too wide and not touching or rarely touching the hs, then what ? The active length is extended back to the stud, so it is now at its furthest point and the slowest it can go at its current ampitude. 

Very good explanation. I sorta new what some things did but not why they did them and that clarified quite a few things. Appreciate ya bud!  

So the terminal curve is just the part from the stud to the first kink then?

[HectorLooi]

17 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

So the terminal curve is just the part from the stud to the first kink then?

Yes. The most important part of the hairspring. It has to follow the arc of the regulator precisely, so that when the regulator arm is moved, the regulator must not touch the hairspring throughout the entire travel. Not an easy thing to achieve.

[Birbdad]

5 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Yes. The most important part of the hairspring. It has to follow the arc of the regulator precisely, so that when the regulator arm is moved, the regulator must not touch the hairspring throughout the entire travel. Not an easy thing to achieve.

Yup i checked that on the nh36 i just serviced and it was perfect.

I also got 3 7s26b balances that all fail this and are unusable as a result so i got ample stuff to practice on for fixing these hairsprings in probably one of the more simple operations.  If i destroy one well, it wasn't working anyways. If ic an fix them though that will be 3 junk movements i bought for parts i can bring back to life and use.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Very good explanation. I sorta new what some things did but not why they did them and that clarified quite a few things. Appreciate ya bud!  

So the terminal curve is just the part from the stud to the first kink then?

Sometimes known as the end curve . 

[Klassiker]

9 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I had heard that closing the regulator pins lowers amplitude and one of the few professional vids i've seen on teh subject the guy puts the regulator arm in the neutral position which gives high rate and then he closes the regulator pins and uses that to lower amplitude to a certain point. 

Where did you get this information, and can you please link to the video? In any case, that isn't what the graphics posted by John are describing.