Incabloc Issue : Watch Stopping

[frenchie]

Hi everyone,

I'm working on a Benrus model FE 255 . It was non working when I got it. The oil in it was all sticky and gummy (the watch had never been serviced). I took it all apart (my first automatic !!! :) ) and I am in the process of putting it back together. I cleaned the balance the way Mark does it, with the balance attached on the movement. When I had it all back together (except for the automatic system), I put in the balance to see if the watch would run. No cigar.

So I opened the incabloc on the balance bridge side and voila, the watch just started ticking !!!

I thought, great, the incabloc is dirty, after a cleaning, all will be good. So I took out the jewels, cleaned them, oiled them (oil on the cap jewel) and put it back together. No cigar. As soon as I push down on the jewel cap to lock the incabloc in place, the watch stops.

So I thought, maybe the other side of the balance wheel pinion is dirty !! Same thing here (also an incabloc): I take out the jewels, the watch starts right up. I clean them, oil them and put them back together and the watch stops....

When you shake the movement lightly, you can see that the balance wheel is not moving smoothly as it should with the incabloc locked.

 

I took out both incablocs twice and doubled checked them to make sure they were clean and not broken or chipped. With my loupe, in the light, it all looks good.

Somehow it looks like the incabloc spring is putting too much pressure down on the balance wheel pinion.

 

Any ideas ? I'm not sure what to do next... :(

[JohnR725]

So when you are cleaning the watch following Mark's method did you leave the Incabloc Jewels in or take them out before running them through the cleaning machine? If you clean the watch with the jewels in place you may still have remnants of dirty sticky oil on the balance pivots. Personally I prefer to remove the jewels before cleaning because I think it does a better job of cleaning the pivots and Jewels.

 

Then at any time did you have both sets out simultaneously and mix them up? The reason for asking is they may look the same sometimes they are the same size other times their different sizes. So different sizing could main the diameter for the balance bridge is larger other times there is usually a thickness difference.

 

Then before you cleaned the watch even with the sticky oil how was the balance wheel moving?

[clockboy]

Agree with John try another clean. Another thought by any chance when you stripped the watch was there anything under the balance cock because sometimes repairers after changing a balance staff & finding it a little to long put a shim under the cock.

 

If the above does not resolve the issue it must be a damaged staff or jewel.

[Geo]

If it's a watch that you purchased not working and sold for repair, don't assume that everything is assembled correctly. Is there a chance that someone has fitted the cap jewels the wrong way? The curved surfaces should be away from the pivots. Just a thought.

[cdjswiss]

A shim under the balance bridge would be high on my list. Try this in any case - if you can find a thin-enough shim. Some watchmakers would bend up the bridge using a lever pivoting on the train bridge. Harold C. Kelly (Watch Repair for Beginners) even goes so far as to recommend this procedure. But if you try it go easiy because the upward bend has to be ever so little. Geo's suggestion is also worth looking into.

 

My own experience of a similar problem turned out to be due to an accumulation of dirt on the narrow entrance to the incablock housing. There is very little space between the thick end of the pivot and the entrance hole to the incablock. A buildup of crud on the thick end of the pivot or the entrance hole itself can jam up the balance. I had to clean the latter with pegwood to cure my problem.

 

[frenchie]

So when you are cleaning the watch following Mark's method did you leave the Incabloc Jewels in or take them out before running them through the cleaning machine? If you clean the watch with the jewels in place you may still have remnants of dirty sticky oil on the balance pivots. Personally I prefer to remove the jewels before cleaning because I think it does a better job of cleaning the pivots and Jewels.

 

Then at any time did you have both sets out simultaneously and mix them up? The reason for asking is they may look the same sometimes they are the same size other times their different sizes. So different sizing could main the diameter for the balance bridge is larger other times there is usually a thickness difference.

 

Then before you cleaned the watch even with the sticky oil how was the balance wheel moving?

 

Yes I did leave the jewels in. I'll try not to next time, very good tip, thank you !!

I never had both jewels out at one time, to make sure I wouldn't mix them up :)

The balance wheel was barely moving, about the same as it moves now.

[frenchie]

Agree with John try another clean. Another thought by any chance when you stripped the watch was there anything under the balance cock because sometimes repairers after changing a balance staff & finding it a little to long put a shim under the cock.

 

If the above does not resolve the issue it must be a damaged staff or jewel.

There was nothing under the balance, I'll add this to my list of things to keep in mind when stripping a watch !

Thank you !

[frenchie]

If it's a watch that you purchased not working and sold for repair, don't assume that everything is assembled correctly. Is there a chance that someone has fitted the cap jewels the wrong way? The curved surfaces should be away from the pivots. Just a thought.

It's a watch one of my friends wanted me to look at. He's bought it new, never got it serviced. It worked for many years and then just stopped. So I'm fairly sure it's all original in there. I'll have to double check the curved surface is facing the right way (it's hard to see sometimes).

Thanks you!

[oldhippy]

Agree with all above. Just because it's been through the cleaner in some cases doesn't make it 100% clean. I've seen some right bodge ups in my time not only with shims but also the brass looking foil washer that should go over the hour wheel shoved under the balance bridge.   

[frenchie]

My own experience of a similar problem turned out to be due to an accumulation of dirt on the narrow entrance to the incablock housing. There is very little space between the thick end of the pivot and the entrance hole to the incablock. A buildup of crud on the thick end of the pivot or the entrance hole itself can jam up the balance. I had to clean the latter with pegwood to cure my problem.

 

incablock.jpg

Great explanation, thank you. Will check this first when I get back to it !!

[cdjswiss]

Finger trouble: when I type incabloc my right little finger always adds the k - I should re-read my typing. Of course incablock is something to do with the building industry!

[bobm12]

Maybe the blocks used by the Incas in South America? :)

 

Good to be back and see your posts Colin!

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[JohnR725]

If it's a watch that you purchased not working and sold for repair, don't assume that everything is assembled correctly. Is there a chance that someone has fitted the cap jewels the wrong way? The curved surfaces should be away from the pivots. Just a thought.

 

This is extremely common problem for people not familiar with Incabloc. So the link below takes you to a video which explains how it works. At the very beginning where it shows the components it shows the cap jewel incorrect as it appears to be flat on both sides. It's not until you get to the side view do you notice that is flat on one side curved on the other. So if the jewel is in upside down there will be zero end shake and the watch more than likely will not run.

[JohnR725]

Yes I did leave the jewels in. I'll try not to next time, very good tip, thank you !!

I never had both jewels out at one time, to make sure I wouldn't mix them up :)

The balance wheel was barely moving, about the same as it moves now.

 

So normally with watch repair we like to repair first clean second. So your balance wheel is doing exactly as it was before indicates something wasn't repaired before cleaning possibly.

 

At one time when watches were lubricated with natural oils they have a tendency to gum up which is actually an outstanding characteristic. So for instance American pocket watches great grandpa’s watch comes to a stop it is put in a drawer someplace years later comes out simple cleaning fixes the problem.

 

But today the lubricants especially the synthetics can do just about anything. The definition of anything means they can gum up, chemically break down, spread themselves so thin effectively they disappear basically no longer lubricating and conceivably still function way beyond a perceived normal servicing interval. In other words you cannot rely on the oil to safely protect the watch by gumming up and stopping it. Then even if the oil does continue to lubricate indefinitely it can pick up contaminations rust for instance dust and becomes a super nice grinding compound.

 

So when you’re checking the cap jewels to make sure they’re facing the correct direction you also want to be looking very carefully at the pivots.

[frenchie]

[snip] So when you’re checking the cap jewels to make sure they’re facing the correct direction you also want to be looking very carefully at the pivots.

Thank you !!

[frenchie]

This is extremely common problem for people not familiar with Incabloc. So the link below takes you to a video which explains how it works. At the very beginning where it shows the components it shows the cap jewel incorrect as it appears to be flat on both sides. It's not until you get to the side view do you notice that is flat on one side curved on the other. So if the jewel is in upside down there will be zero end shake and the watch more than likely will not run.

 

You win !! :)

I flipped one of the jewels over and voila !! It runs :) I have to check the other one (my real job is keeping me busy these days, I can only do a few minutes with my toys here and there... :( )

 

My buddy will be happy :) I think he is as happy that it is running again as he is that can shorten the band to fit his wrist :)

I need to wear the watch for a couple of days to make sure all is good. Will post some pics later if I can my camera to focus properly.

[Geo]

Excellent Frenchie! :)

[oldhippy]

Well done. I bet you feel a whole lot better now. :woohoo-jumping-smiley-emoticon: