Watch cleaning lighter fluid

[grsnovi]

On 8/25/2022 at 12:05 PM, dadistic said:

Good luck finding 64742-49-0 in the US.  Chemical supply houses have it, at more than ten times what you are paying in Switzerland.

VM&P Naphtha is 64742-49-0 and you should be able to find it (in the USA) in hardware and/or paint stores.

[dadistic]

Yep, Sunnyside Naphtha too! Same thing!

Cool. This is what I used to use.  Good to know that this is the same thing that@nickelsilveris referring too.

I feel a bit silly that I didn't check the CAS# on the VM&P Naphtha

Thanks!

[Gramham]

13 hours ago, dadistic said:

I've checked online what's sold locally, ACE hardware which is a national chain has a 148ml bottle for $3.00 US.

However, it is not the same as what you show.  I've attached a snip of the SDS for the product sold here. Notice that it is not a complete ingredient list, so no way to know what additives or other distillates are in it. 

Hello @dadistic,

Well that sucks.  I doubt highly that I can send you what I'm getting over here considering the restrictions on mailing flammable substances. 

Maybe what we can do is hit on a common testing protocol to see if the two different formulations perform the same way and give the desired results?

I promise it won't cost too much or take too long, and might be useful for people around the world wondering if their lighter fluid is leaving any unwanted residue on their beloved micro-machine parts.

Here's what I plan to use for my experiment:

1 x  Bell or Flying Saucer-shaped Cover
3 x 40x25 glass containers (with lid)
5 x Watch Paper
1 x RONSONOL Lighter Fluid (133ml)
1 x Mobile Phone w/ Magnifier & Microscope Plus application (FREE version)
3 x Sheet of White Paper
1 x Time Measurement Device
1 x Light Source (2nd mobile phone) with White Screen application (FREE)

Here's my experimental protocol:

A)  Clean 3  x 40x25 glass containers with water
B)  Wipe  3  x 40x25 glass containers dry with watch paper
C)  Drip enough RONSONOL into bottom of 3 containers to cover 33% to 50% of the bottom surface
D)  Cover 3 containers with cover, leaving the apparatus in a sufficiently ventilated area
flammable liquids management!
E)  Wait long enough for the RONSONOL to fully evaporate (12 hours?  24 hours?)
F)  Stack 3 x Sheets of White Paper to provide sufficient contrast (assumption is residue is not white)
G)  Place 3 x containers on White Paper Stack
H)  Take photographs at 100% using Magnifier & Microscope
I)  Take photographs at 200% using Magnifier & Microscope 
J)  Take photographs at 400% using Magnifier & Microscope
K)    Using 2nd mobile phone, launch White Screen application
L)  Place 3 x containers on Mobile Screen
M)  Take photographs at 100% using Magnifier & Microscope
N)  Take photographs at 200% using Magnifier & Microscope 
O)  Take photographs at 400% using Magnifier & Microscope
P)  Clean apparatus and put all materials away
Q)  Circulate results indicating feedstock RONSONOL size, labeling and ingredients along with photographic results

What say you?

If you are missing any of the equipment listed I'd be happy to send it to you. 

(I am assuming you have access to 2 x mobile phones and a time measurement device.)



g.

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Edited August 27, 2022 by Gramham
Hazardous Goods Highlighting

[dadistic]

Well, I don't know if you saw later in the thread, but it turns out that the Varnish Makers and Painters Naphtha that is commonly sold here in the states is the same CAS# as your Ronsonol.  Strange, but true

I'd steer people here in the States towards the Naphtha, in fact that is what I used to use.

Do you have a picture of the glass containers you propose to use? They might be the little containers I've been looking for, without any success.

Cheers!

[Gramham]

17 minutes ago, dadistic said:

Well, I don't know if you saw later in the thread, but it turns out that the Varnish Makers and Painters Naphtha that is commonly sold here in the states is the same CAS# as your Ronsonol.  Strange, but true

I'd steer people here in the States towards the Naphtha, in fact that is what I used to use.

Do you have a picture of the glass containers you propose to use? They might be the little containers I've been looking for, without any success.

Cheers!

Hello @dadistic,

Sure, here's a couple of photos.

 

I have several different (larger, smaller) sizes that I am procuring from China as part of an "Enthusiast" oriented Watchmaking Starter Kit that I plan to start marketing this Fall.

I found professional watchmaking suppliers really expensive, and the sheer number of things you need to get started pretty daunting...so I am thinking a value-oriented Watchmaking Starter Kit makes sense.  What do you think?

As for the RONSONOL protocol, I am going to do it on my side anyways because the product you found is probably not as widely distributed as RONSONOL, and there's a LOT  of it in that packaging (1 gallon!)

My take is beginners just need a small amount of "something" to get started before buying stuff in bulk.  After all, they may end up not liking this hobby (horrors!).



g.
----

Edited August 27, 2022 by Gramham
Missing Capitalization

[Kalanag]

3 hours ago, Gramham said:

…Maybe what we can do is hit on a common testing protocol to see if the two different formulations perform the same way and give the desired results?

I promise it won't cost too much or take too long, and might be useful for people around the world wondering if their lighter fluid is leaving any unwanted residue on their beloved micro-machine parts.

Here's what I plan to use for my experiment:

1 x  Bell or Flying Saucer-shaped Cover
3 x 40x25 glass containers (with lid)
5 x Watch Paper
1 x RONSONOL Lighter Fluid (133ml)
1 x Mobile Phone w/ Magnifier & Microscope Plus application (FREE version)
3 x Sheet of White Paper
1 x Time Measurement Device
1 x Light Source (2nd mobile phone) with White Screen application (FREE)
…

What is wrong with the easy way? I put a drop of fluid on a carefully cleaned hand mirror and let it evaporate. If the drop leaves no visible residue the liquid is clean. The mirroring surface allows recognizing the tinyest trace of contamination.

[Gramham]

20 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

What is wrong with the easy way? I put a drop of fluid on a carefully cleaned hand mirror and let it evaporate. If the drop leaves no visible residue the liquid is clean. The mirroring surface allows recognizing the tinyest trace of contamination.

You have a pretty good protocol.  I may incorporate it into my protocol as a third test.

- I'm going to run a 3x for the sake of testing Validity and Repeatability.
- I'm going to cover it to prevent dust intrusion, and give it plenty of time to run.
- I'm going to compare it to a fairly standard color value (white paper)
- I'm going to illuminate it from below, using a white light, as a check against the White Paper method

g.

-----

Edited August 27, 2022 by Gramham

[nickelsilver]

If you are using those containers with ground glass lids and cover the fluid I'm not sure how well the evaporation will work? Also, if not using the mirror test, you will probably find a dark or black background better for contrast when looking for residue.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Gramham said:

Hello @dadistic,

Well that sucks.  I doubt highly that I can send you what I'm getting over here considering the restrictions on mailing flammable substances. 

Maybe what we can do is hit on a common testing protocol to see if the two different formulations perform the same way and give the desired results?

I promise it won't cost too much or take too long, and might be useful for people around the world wondering if their lighter fluid is leaving any unwanted residue on their beloved micro-machine parts.

Here's what I plan to use for my experiment:

1 x  Bell or Flying Saucer-shaped Cover
3 x 40x25 glass containers (with lid)
5 x Watch Paper
1 x RONSONOL Lighter Fluid (133ml)
1 x Mobile Phone w/ Magnifier & Microscope Plus application (FREE version)
3 x Sheet of White Paper
1 x Time Measurement Device
1 x Light Source (2nd mobile phone) with White Screen application (FREE)

Here's my experimental protocol:

A)  Clean 3  x 40x25 glass containers with water
B)  Wipe  3  x 40x25 glass containers dry with watch paper
C)  Drip enough RONSONOL into bottom of 3 containers to cover 33% to 50% of the bottom surface
D)  Cover 3 containers with cover, leaving the apparatus in a sufficiently ventilated area
flammable liquids management!
E)  Wait long enough for the RONSONOL to fully evaporate (12 hours?  24 hours?)
F)  Stack 3 x Sheets of White Paper to provide sufficient contrast (assumption is residue is not white)
G)  Place 3 x containers on White Paper Stack
H)  Take photographs at 100% using Magnifier & Microscope
I)  Take photographs at 200% using Magnifier & Microscope 
J)  Take photographs at 400% using Magnifier & Microscope
K)    Using 2nd mobile phone, launch White Screen application
L)  Place 3 x containers on Mobile Screen
M)  Take photographs at 100% using Magnifier & Microscope
N)  Take photographs at 200% using Magnifier & Microscope 
O)  Take photographs at 400% using Magnifier & Microscope
P)  Clean apparatus and put all materials away
Q)  Circulate results indicating feedstock RONSONOL size, labeling and ingredients along with photographic results

What say you?

If you are missing any of the equipment listed I'd be happy to send it to you. 

(I am assuming you have access to 2 x mobile phones and a time measurement device.)



g.

-----

Graham.  I say what hell are you taking. I want some

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Graham.  I say what hell are you taking. I want some

Only joking fella, love you to bits.  Your focused detailed explanations and descriptions just show how passionate you are about your helpful writings. It did make me laugh though when you included the clean apparatus and put all materials away step lol. Its the sort of addition i would add if i were taking the pee lol.  Which is pretty much all the time.

[dadistic]

12 hours ago, Gramham said:

Hello @dadistic,

Sure, here's a couple of photos.

 

I have several different (larger, smaller) sizes that I am procuring from China as part of an "Enthusiast" oriented Watchmaking Starter Kit that I plan to start marketing this Fall.

----

Do you have a source for the smaller 40X25 ones?  I've found that they are a good size for cleaning balance jewels etc, but I broke mine and now I can't find a replacement.  The larger ones are really too big, and the brand name ones are absurdly expensive. 

Thanks!

[grsnovi]

@dadistic Have you seen these on Amazon? I use the 35ml one for balance cock/hairspring and pallet rinse.

[dadistic]

Just looked at them, but even the 20ml wide form is a bit bigger than I wanted. It's about 50mm in diameter, and there are some that size on Ebay, $16.50 with shipping. 

I don't think the tall form  would work, too hard to get the tweezers in to pick up a jewel, etc.

Thanks for the suggestion, though!

Hey @grsnovi, your search term of weighing bottle helped! I found what I was looking for on Amazon,  $15.99 + $9.00 shipping, still a bit pricey compared to the last one I bought. 

Progress, though! Thanks!

Got a pair coming from China,  total cost $8.92 including shipping.  They will take three to four weeks to arrive, I guess I'll just have to suffer in the meantime

Cheers!

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 hours ago, Gramham said:

If you are missing any of the equipment listed I'd be happy to send it to you.

Aw mate you ARE a gem. If its ok with everyone else I'll have the 2 phones and the microscope. I love you even more now  

[oriundo]

Here in Switzerland this lighter fluid is easily procurable at the major hardware stores:

It is commercialized by the german company Fessman & Hecker.
I was able to find the MSDS of it and it reports the same description as the "alternative" Ronsonol, no CAS nr. is indicated:

I use it to clean all movement parts,followed by 3 cycles rinsing in isopropyl 99.9%.

However, I never tried it on the balance and pallet fork.
Since I started learning only recently, I didn't want to risk to damage those parts.

In your opinion, would it be safe to use it as a unique cleaning means for balance and pallet fork?

Edited October 3, 2022 by oriundo

[watchweasol]

Thats a moot point, there are various opinions regarding lighter fuel (Benzine)and whether it effects shellac.   Some say its ok to use others say not, I have used it with no problems but did not soak the parts just rinsed them with no effect.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, oriundo said:

Here in Switzerland this lighter fluid is easily procurable at the major hardware stores:

It is commercialized by the german company Fessman & Hecker.
I was able to find the MSDS of it and it reports the same description as the "alternative" Ronsonol, no CAS nr. is indicated:

I use it to clean all movement parts,followed by 3 cycles rinsing in isopropyl 99.9%.

However, I never tried it on the balance and pallet fork.
Since I started learning only recently, I didn't want to risk to damage those parts.

In your opinion, would it be safe to use it as a unique cleaning means for balance and pallet fork?

There are varying grades of naptha in lighter fuel. Yours has a medium carbon to hydrogen ratio which makes it a mid naptha.  Less carbon light naptha , more cafbon heavy naptha. Also lighter fuel not a pure grade naptha, supposedly with additives to help it burn, strangely enough never listed in the ingredients and no one has yet given any information as to what those addatives are . As far as i know any benzine product will not affect shellac even with a long soak, i have done overnight before on some stubborn grime. On the other hand IPA will dissolve shellac if left too long in it.

[fellerts]

I'm looking down this rabbit hole with contempt, having found a few readily available fluids here in Norway that specifically mention naphtha (nafta in the local tongue) and tried them out. All seem to do a reasonable job of cleaning grease and oils from my parts, but they evaporate very slowly.

Could someone share ballpark estimates of how long a drop of "proper" naphtha should take to evaporate from, say, a post-it note, or a metal surface on its own? Should I expect similar evaporation characteristics to 99.5 % IPA (which evaporates before you can say isopropyl alcohol)?

[grsnovi]

So, unscientific (in as much as I didn't precisely measure the volume of my drop) but I got 100 seconds for 99.5% IPA and 390 seconds for the Naphtha that I have.

I dipped the pointed tip of a stainless steel scribe into each and dropped what remained on the tip onto a glass petri dish.

You results may vary.

 

[fellerts]

1 hour ago, grsnovi said:

So, unscientific (in as much as I didn't precisely measure the volume of my drop) but I got 100 seconds for 99.5% IPA and 390 seconds for the Naphtha that I have.

I dipped the pointed tip of a stainless steel scribe into each and dropped what remained on the tip onto a glass petri dish.

You results may vary.

 

Appreciate that! I’ll keep looking for more suited naphtha sources, mine definitely isn’t evaporating that fast.

[grsnovi]

Seems after using naphtha, I drained the baskets, tapped them to remove excess liquid and then moved the stack into an IPA rinse, which I did twice (changing the dirty IPA out for clean IPA).

I have since switched to using Elma's wash followed by the Elma rinse.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 10/14/2022 at 2:58 PM, fellerts said:

Could someone share ballpark estimates of how long a drop of "proper" naphtha should take to evaporate from, say, a post-it note.

This depends on the grade of naptha, its carbon to hydrogen ratio will determine its evaporation rate as i understand it. I cant say I've experimented with different ones. I'm thinking that it is irrelevant really as a rinse of ipa will take take of it. Or if just using naptha on a shellaced watch  part then use a puffer to disperse and evaporate the naptha on watch paper. Its pretty quick.

[fellerts]

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This depends on the grade of naptha, its carbon to hydrogen ratio will determine its evaporation rate as i understand it. I cant say I've experimented with different ones. I'm thinking that it is irrelevant really as a rinse of ipa will take take of it. Or if just using naptha on a shellaced watch  part then use a puffer to disperse and evaporate the naptha on watch paper. Its pretty quick.

Got myself some Zippo lighter fluid (not easy, nobody sells this stuff here) and it evaporates significantly faster than the two other naphtha sources I've found. Much easier to work with then, and seems to do an okay job of dissolving old oils. Though I'm still spending a lot of time pegging out jewels and generally scraping at old dirt, I don't really mind that part of the process anyway.

[mikepilk]

Save yourself the hassle and expense :

Yes it does leave an oily residue*, you can feel it.  Just a quick rinse in IPA is all you need to remove it.

*refined naphtha

[nickelsilver]

-

Edited April 6, 2023 by nickelsilver
quoted in wrong place!