Cannon pinion remover options?

[Birbdad]

I've used the search feature to find all the discussions I could on this so apologies if i missed something. So apparently the bergeon dedicated cannon pinion remover is overpriced and useless as it only removes 1 to 1.8mm cannon pinions which is insane for a 100+ dollar tool and most people recommend the green handled bergeon 30637-2 but I'm assuming that's been discontinued as not one american online seller has it in stock (i ordered it twice from sellers who said it was and they canceled the order saying they have no idea if it will ever be in stock again). I tried a chinese version that had good reviews and it was utterly useless and got returned. There's a lot of fake 30637-2 all over ali express and most of the ebay listings for it look to be chinese fakes. I see some vintage original versions of the bergeon one but the sellers can't tell me anything about them and most don't accept returns.

Did Bergeon discontinue the 30637-2? Have they replaced it with something? What are the good options now? i'd just like to buy something to do this task and not have to spend weeks and more money returning things that don't work and i'd rather not spend over 100 dollars on the bergeon tool that seems to have "useless" paired with it in most of the threads about it here.

Also i removed one from a 7s26 with a pair of tweezers pretty carefully, apparently that was a bad idea. That will be fun to troubleshoot later I'm sure haha.

[dadistic]

I use a pin vise.

[LittleWatchShop]

I have a vintage one that is like the Bergeron 4854. I have two, actually. Cannot imagine using anything else.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I have a vintage one that is like the Bergeron 4854. I have two, actually. Cannot imagine using anything else.

Yeah, i see a bunch of old vintage ones on ebay (Which i try to avoid at all costs.) and the sellers have no idea if they work, can't tell me what sizes cannon pinions they can remove, can't tell me if they're for pocket watches or wrist watches but are happy to have me gamble 60 or 70 bucks on the off chance it does work.

really would like to avoid this if possible.

 

 

1 hour ago, dadistic said:

I use a pin vise.

That looks interesting...by chance do you have a link to that specific item? looks like there's a few things called pin vices taht may or may not do what i need this for.  Also it seems like you could probably really easily print some sort of tubular guide for it to ensure you get a straight pull.

[HectorLooi]

When I first started, I used a cheap Chinese hand remover for removing cannon pinions too. It works quite well.

Then I bought a vintage K&D cannon pinion remover on eBay. But it couldn't even close down on collets that were 1mm, making it practically useless.

I modified the collet and removed the centre ejector pin. Now it can close on  collets smaller than 0.7mm.

[Paul80]

With the old one there appear to be two types. One for wrist watches and one for pocket watches, the Bergeon version is for pocket watches, with the old vintage version i understand the way to tell the difference is by counting the number of jaws it has, the pocket watch version has 4 jaws and the wristwatch version has 5.

Regarding the Chinese version of the Bergeon tool, don't forget Bergeon have most of their tools made in China as well so if you get one it will probably be no better than the Chinese ones but just cost 10x more.

[Birbdad]

59 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

With the old one there appear to be two types. One for wrist watches and one for pocket watches, the Bergeon version is for pocket watches, with the old vintage version i understand the way to tell the difference is by counting the number of jaws it has, the pocket watch version has 4 jaws and the wristwatch version has 5.

Regarding the Chinese version of the Bergeon tool, don't forget Bergeon have most of their tools made in China as well so if you get one it will probably be no better than the Chinese ones but just cost 10x more.

Hmm, i might look for one. I actually haven't seen a knock off of wood handled one.

I did buy a chinese knockoff of the bergeon presto cannon pinion remover and it was absolutely useless. The plastic buffers weren't the same length, only one slid down the proper amount, the jaws weren't alligned and the gap between them was way too big for most cannon pinions.

If i could find a chinese version of hte presto 2 that actually works that would be ideal.  I did find another site that lists the begeon one and i ordered it. We'll see if they cancel the order again.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I have a vintage one that is like the Bergeron 4854. I have two, actually. Cannot imagine using anything else

Yes the key is to have two of them. Because it seems to be that one just won't cut it sometimes you need the other one.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

51 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes the key is to have two of them. Because it seems to be that one just won't cut it sometimes you need the other one.

 

I can work on two watches simultaneously

[KarlvonKoln]

I just use the Presto version of the Bergeon 30637-2.  I haven't seen a cannon pinion it couldn't pull.  And I work on both antique pocket watches and wrist watches.  No issues so far.  (I should probably go knock on wood now.)

[dadistic]

10 hours ago, Birbdad said:

That looks interesting...by chance do you have a link to that specific item? looks like there's a few things called pin vices taht may or may not do what i need this for.  Also it seems like you could probably really easily print some sort of tubular guide for it to ensure you get a straight pull.

That one I brought home from my tool set at work, It's a Starrett B pin vise,  it holds from  0.8mm to 1.6mm.

I also have this set, and a bunch of miscellaneous ones that I've picked up. The nose on the "Z" set is different from the on I showed in the picture, I think that one is the plain 162. 

Starrett S162Z Pin Vises Set (4 Pieces)

https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/S162Z

You can buy them at Amazon, etc.  Not cheap, but I use them in all sorts of ways. 

3 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

I just use the Presto version of the Bergeon 30637-2.  I haven't seen a cannon pinion it couldn't pull.  And I work on both antique pocket watches and wrist watches.  No issues so far.  (I should probably go knock on wood now.)

If I ever have a problem using the pin vise to remove canon pinions, I'll probably invest in the Presto #2.  I have the #3 that I use to pull wheels, I've been happy with it. 

[LittleWatchShop]

7 minutes ago, dadistic said:

If I ever have a problem using the pin vise to remove canon pinions,

I am trying to get my head around how you use it.  Do you hold it with one hand, lower on to the cannon pinion, tighten with the other hand, then while holding the movement, pull?

[dadistic]

Almost -

I hold it in my right hand, lower it on to the cannon pinion, then hold the collar with my left hand, and twist the barrel until it's tight.  Then pull straight up, but I do that by resting my hand on the table and just using my fingers to pull up. 

On pocket watches I usually use heavy brass tweezers, and just hold the movement and try to lift straight up. I  fit my thumb under the tweezers and and try to lift that way, rather than levering, which could bend things. 

Hard to describe, and probably not the best technique, but so far so good.  I'm sure I'll end up with a Presto #2, but my tool budget is stretched a bit at the moment buying collets for my lathe.  Darned expensive, even for used ones. 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, dadistic said:

Then pull straight up, but I do that by resting my hand on the table and just using my fingers to pull up. 

 

4 hours ago, dadistic said:

Hard to describe, and probably not the best technique, but so far so good.

The only concern I would have with this method is if you don't pull Absolutely straight up you could Bend the center shaft.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I am trying to get my head around how you use it.  Do you hold it with one hand, lower on to the cannon pinion, tighten with the other hand, then while holding the movement, pull?

This sounds risky 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

 

The only concern I would have with this method is if you don't pull Absolutely straight up you could Bend the center shaft.

Or break it. Oops yes i have. My cheap presto tool works perfecty every time.

[dadistic]

Hasn't happened yet, after umpty umpty watches,  but I agree  there is a risk.

Cheers!

[TimeWerks]

I use a vintage canon pin remover on the left first (usually works), but if not I switch to the presto which will do the trick otherwise.

I am surprised, but at the same time not surprised that they appear to be out of stock everywhere.  I am having trouble getting a proper clock mainspring winder.

Vintage puller (left),  presto puller (center), and presto hand puller ( far right).

 Interestingly the presto hand remover seems identical to the presto cannon pinion remover except for the plunger, but it is in stock.  You could maybe buy one and try using it.

 If the  spring plunger gets in the way, pull it off.  If the gap in the pulling edge needs a bigger hole, use a file to make it a fraction bigger. As a final touch, paint the handle green

[Birbdad]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This sounds risky 

Or break it. Oops yes i have. My cheap presto tool works perfecty every time.

You remember where you got that? the bergeon presto 2 appears to be discontinued or unobtainium. Its such a simple thing it feels like a cheap knockoff would be fine but the one I tried was useless.

47 minutes ago, TimeWerks said:

 

I am surprised, but at the same time not surprised that they appear to be out of stock everywhere.  I am having trouble getting a proper clock mainspring winder.

 

The strange thing is that ONLY the green presto 2 appears to be out of stock everywhere. Even Cousins isn't selling it right now but they actually have a reason.
They say bergeon is on their "summer break" and basically have stopped making anything and won't resume till they start work again. 

that might explain it if it's one of their more popular items.

EDIT: As expected the 3rd place I just ordered it from just emailed me to tell me they don't have it in stock after all. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Birbdad

[LittleWatchShop]

55 minutes ago, TimeWerks said:

I am having trouble getting a proper clock mainspring winder.

Which winder are you looking for?

[TimeWerks]

4 hours ago, Birbdad said:

You remember where you got that?

A lot of my tools from my dad who was a watchmaker before me.  Esslinger has the presto #1 for around $50. https://www.esslinger.com/bergeon-1-watch-tool-presto-hand-remover-30636-1/

3 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Which winder are you looking for?

I am looking for an Ollie Baker clock mainspring winder.

[Nucejoe]

14 hours ago, dadistic said:

I  hold it in my right hand, lower it on to the cannon pinion, then hold the collar with my left hand, and twist the barrel until it's tight.  Then pull straight up, but I do that by resting my hand on the table and just using my fingers to pull up. 

 

 I too use a pin vice to remove canon pinions in same way described above. I use my fingers to push against the mainplate whilst holding the vice in my hand( all done by one hand).  

 

[HectorLooi]

2 hours ago, TimeWerks said:

I am looking for an Ollie Baker clock mainspring winder.

Cousins is out of stock at the moment. Supposed to get new batch in October.

[Paul80]

Hi all.

With the Bergeron 4854 which as long as you don't buy it on eBay is not that expensive for a Bergeon tool (about £65 plus Vat in the UK) but is designed for pocket watch Cannon Pinions has anyone found a way to modify it to pull the smaller sizes found on wrist watches. Anyone found a way to replace the 4 jaw chuck with a smaller 5/6 jaw version.

Thanks

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, Birbdad said:

You remember where you got that? the bergeon presto 2 appears to be discontinued or unobtainium. Its such a simple thing it feels like a cheap knockoff would be fine but the one I tried was useless.

Hi Birb. This actually came in a cheap watch repair kit. Its really a hand remover, i took out the center part that lowers on to the hands to steady them and reshaped the tips to grab the cannon pinion when it closes up. The plastic sides push down on the mainplate and the cannon pinion pops staight up and off.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[HectorLooi]

The quality of the Chinese hand removers is getting worse. The first one I bought 4 years ago was still ok, but the ones I bought recently were totally useless. The two white plastic blocks on my original were riveted to the metal with brass rivets. The recent ones were just held by a plastic pin with the ends flattened by a soldering iron. It broke on the first use.