What would make the balance wheel insanely slow on a 7s36b movement?

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

If only the barrel complete is listed then as you refit the mainspring with bare hands it may get distorted or contaminated. There is no readily available metal winder available for these. The GR generic mainspring that one can buy is stupidly expensive and doesn't give the performance of the original one, which does not requires braking grease thanks to its design and metallurgy.

The simplest way to tell if it's a sealed barrel is to look in the parts list. If there is no separate components listed it sealed. Just because you can take it apart and disassemble it doesn't really change the definition of it's a sealed.

That as noted by JDM as this is come up before the replacement barrels don't have the same characteristic as the original springs do. Then that would be the original springs that you can't get because are not available.

One of the amusing contradictions to this rule is Omega has a working instruction on how to recycle a mainspring barrel. It explains how to disassemble a barrel clean everything check that everything is perfect and put it all back together again. Yet from conversations with people work in their service centers they just replace the entire barrel. So it is somewhat amusing that Omega would go to the trouble of doing a document on something that they never do.

Then for a lot of the sealed barrels the lids are on much much tighter. Or they go on in such a way that if you attempt to disassemble you'll basically destroy it.

 

[Birbdad]

5 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

how are sealed barrels and non sealed barrels recognized if at all?

disregard-I just read your post again. barrels listed as a separate part. got it.

 

Just an fyi you can actually buy brand new movements of this for about 45 to 50 bucks without date wheels on ebay pretty regularly which is actually up quite a bit from the last time i looked when they were commonly on there for about 35 bucks. I guess seiko discontinuing them has driven up the price a bit. Regardless you can also get old beat up seiko 5's running it for as cheap as 20 bucks and part those out.  One of the reasons i wanted to make this my first project is that worst comes to worst, spare parts are cheap and i can simply buy a new one to have a parts redundancy in storage. 

I actually literally bought this watch because ti's the cheapest model they make to be my first watch to tinker with with the full expectation that i might cock it up (Which i most certainly have! But that's ok hehe).

Just remember if you do work on it there's several versions, 7s26a 7s26b and 7s26c and there's parts compatibility issues between them, not all parts but several.  The 7s26 tech sheet from seiko lists every part that's incompatible between the models. I saw another member here learned this the hard way.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Birbdad

[jdm]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Yet from conversations with people work in their service centers they just replace the entire barrel. So it is somewhat amusing that Omega would go to the trouble of doing a document on something that they never do.

I think this happens because the service centers look for profit and labor reduction foremost. The typical Omega owner that brings them his watch(es) has no problem in paying for a barrel complete on top of the already high service cost.
I would be just half-curious about the official prices of an Omega mainspring, and barrel complete. On Seiko 7S/4R and their SII counterparts the barrel is easily one half of a complete new mov.t!

 

4 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Just remember if you do work on it there's several versions, 7s26a 7s26b and 7s26c and there's parts compatibility issues between them, not all parts but several. 

At the link below all the differences summarized and explained in a single document by myself.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRN2UULQKTfKmhRStZhDdIOIQrqd6sPB-g6x2SKyQQjOvTBjG_7TQXQhAT4f1WqAX5QAPkIimi-3jqd/pubhtml

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

I think this happens because the service centers look for profit and labor reduction foremost. The typical Omega owner that brings them his watch(es) has no problem in paying for a barrel complete on top of the already high service cost.
I would be just half-curious about the official prices of an Omega mainspring, and barrel complete. On Seiko 7S/4R and their SII counterparts the barrel is easily one half of a complete new mov.t!

 

At the link below all the differences summarized and explained in a single document by myself.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRN2UULQKTfKmhRStZhDdIOIQrqd6sPB-g6x2SKyQQjOvTBjG_7TQXQhAT4f1WqAX5QAPkIimi-3jqd/pubhtml

Thank you for taking the time to do that, that's a great resource!

Out of curiosity do you know of a good video or site page that goes reasonably in depth about the adjusting of the studs on the etachrons and how they influence the hairspring and how that in turn influences the watch?

I'm talking with other people outside of here and one guys suggeting i try rotating one, i'm not planning to  and don't think i even have tools that could but I did realize i know very little about what they actually do to the hairspring  and what rotating them to increase and decrease clearance on the hairspring actually does. Specifically talking about parts 2 and 3 on this picture (Not my picture.). 

It's challenging to even find resources on this stuff when you don't even know all the proper terminology yet.



I am concerned in my attempt to regulate the thing I twisted one on accident somehow and once the watch powered down it is now at a dead stop, i'm amused and fascinated that the only thing i've touched is moving those couple etachron levers a collective total of less than 3/4 of a mm probably between the two and it's completely killed a watch. Once it powered down the balance wheel is now at a dead stop, no jiggle, not even a tiny bit of movement. I can't fathom what could cause that but I need to understand what did.

I paid nothing for this thing on ebay and have no attachment to it and was always gonna be my sacrificial lamb so i'm not terribly concerned.

now that it's at a dead stop i will post pictures of the hairspring and would be interested if anything looks strange to you guys.  

[gbyleveldt]

Last page of the attached service document shows exactly how to set the regulator pin.

917_seiko 7s26c, 7s36c.pdf

Edited July 27, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[Birbdad]

26 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

Last page of the attached service document shows exactly how to set the regulator pin.

917_seiko 7s26c, 7s36c.pdf 1.52 MB · 1 download

Oh i have that, i'd just never scrolled down that far.
So when people DO adjust this is this an adjustmant that can be made iwth tweezers or do you need the specialized little wrench tools they make for setting them?

I'm noticing looking at at least that example in the pic the stud on the regulator pin is VERY rotated compared to how mine currently is.

Intuitively it doesn't seem to me like doing anything small but wrong with those would completely and utterly stop a balance wheel to the point that it won't even jiggle when powered down...

[jdm]

35 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

this an adjustmant that can be made iwth tweezers

Tweezers are just fine. 

35 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

 

would completely and utterly stop a balance wheel to the point that it won't even jiggle when powered down...

It's not the regulator. Something else is jammed badly. 

[gbyleveldt]

I use sturdy tweezers to adjust it. Bear in mind it should otherwise never need to be adjusted from factory to be honest, only when you replace the hair spring. If it's over adjusted too far then it'll pinch the hair spring and twist it, you don't want that.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

 

It's not the regulator. Something else is jammed badly. 

That's wild...i've not even touched anything else in the watch.  The watch had been behaving strange since I got it though, I wonder if whatever was causing the second hand to stop from the day i got it just got a bit more out of whack.

 

 

1 hour ago, gbyleveldt said:

I use sturdy tweezers to adjust it. Bear in mind it should otherwise never need to be adjusted from factory to be honest, only when you replace the hair spring. If it's over adjusted too far then it'll pinch the hair spring and twist it, you don't want that.

Yeah I wasn't planning to. Just making a mental inventory of any further tools i might need someday if i ever get to a point where i think it's a good idea to be messing with  hairsprings which is quite a ways off.

[Birbdad]

Ok, possible plot thickening. I did not cause this, at least not on disassembly but I just removed the calendar and motion works and everything on the dial side of the movement, turn it over and removed the rotor and saw this loose diashock. Could something like this cause it to jam up? Will be interesting to see if it's even got power, the winding stuff all seems to be working

here's also a decent pic of the hairspring. Far as i can tell it looks fine? But what do i know at this point.

The regulating pin is visually a good bit more twisted on this watch than on my other. Just thought that might be worth mentioning.

 EDIT:
Ok, i just took a close look at the pallet fork. One of the jewels is tilted up and appears to be sliding out of the shellac. I hadn't even removed it when i saw it so If it was me that caused this it wasn't from the disassembly. That might explain the strange signal in dial left and also explain the total lack of function. IT's tilting up so much it probably jammed against the escapement wheel, my guess is that is also what caused the balance wheel to be stuck!

Edited July 28, 2022 by Birbdad

[MechanicMike]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:58 PM, Birbdad said:

The 7s26 tech sheet from seiko lists every part that's incompatible between the models. I saw another member here learned this the hard way.

I probably have that very same sheet

[watchweasol]

jdm has posted a sheet which lists compatible parts between models might be worth having  search for it.  I havit somewhere on my computer, If I findit i will re post it.

[MechanicMike]

14 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

jdm has posted a sheet which lists compatible parts between models might be worth having  search for it.  I havit somewhere on my computer, If I findit i will re post it.

totally read that wrong. JDM had listed it above.

Edited July 28, 2022 by MechanicMike
eyesight depleting! gah...

[watchweasol]

Yes indeed Mike he did  I thought it was worth a reminder.

[MechanicMike]

23 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Yes indeed Mike he did  I thought it was worth a reminder.

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, Birbdad said:

saw this loose diashock. Could something like this cause it to jam up? 

What arecyou looking at here birb ? The images are not clear enough to make out a problem 

10 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Ok, possible plot thickening. I did not cause this, at least not on disassembly but I just removed the calendar and motion works and everything on the dial side of the movement, turn it over and removed the rotor and saw this loose diashock. Could something like this cause it to jam up? Will be interesting to see if it's even got power, the winding stuff all seems to be working

here's also a decent pic of the hairspring. Far as i can tell it looks fine? But what do i know at this point.

The regulating pin is visually a good bit more twisted on this watch than on my other. Just thought that might be worth mentioning.

 EDIT:
Ok, i just took a close look at the pallet fork. One of the jewels is tilted up and appears to be sliding out of the shellac. I hadn't even removed it when i saw it so If it was me that caused this it wasn't from the disassembly. That might explain the strange signal in dial left and also explain the total lack of function. IT's tilting up so much it probably jammed against the escapement wheel, my guess is that is also what caused the balance wheel to be stuck!

It seems you have found your spanner birb. Well done if so. The pallet jewel is moving ? This would be causing your locking up of escapement and non self starting from hacking. The fork sticking and holding the balance . 

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What arecyou looking at here birb ? The images are not clear enough to make out a problem 

It seems you have found your spanner birb. Well done if so. The pallet jewel is moving ? This would be causing your locking up of escapement and non self starting from hacking. The fork sticking and holding the balance . 

One half of the diashock in that picture is unhooked. It's hard to tell but it looks like the cap stone under it is partially unseated as well. I'm going to finish the dissassembly today and reset it. I wish i could take better pictures but i'm using a crappy camera phone through a cheap plastic jewelers loupe set i got for 8 dollars.

Also found another example of this exact watch on ebay for 20 dollars so i ordered it for a new pallet fork.

Gotta say, I'm REALLY enjoying this!

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Birbdad said:

One half of the diashock in that picture is unhooked. It's hard to tell but it looks like the cap stone under it is partially unseated as well. I'm going to finish the dissassembly today and reset it. I wish i could take better pictures but i'm using a crappy camera phone through a cheap plastic jewelers loupe set i got for 8 dollars.

Also found another example of this exact watch on ebay for 20 dollars so i ordered it for a new pallet fork.

Gotta say, I'm REALLY enjoying this!

Good for you birb. That has a lot to do with you finding the issues. Frustrating when you cant understand what is wrong and are grasping at straws. Well done mate for sticking with it.

[Birbdad]

19 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Good for you birb. That has a lot to do with you finding the issues. Frustrating when you cant understand what is wrong and are grasping at straws. Well done mate for sticking with it.

Not frustrated at all! i'm loving every minute of this! 

What i wish is  if I could know what i could have done to cause this as this watch possibly has a questionable past and had some strange issues from the get go.  Super cheap ebay purchase, fake box and fake pillow. So is this my screw up or did me tinkering just take an already unhealthy watch and make it totally fail? Not knowing that is a bit frustrating because I can't learn from a mistake if i can't identify it.

The other places i'm posting where people are dealing with me can't think of any possible way simply adjusting those etachron levers slightly could break a pallet fork and certainly cant dislodge a diashock and cap jewel. on the other side of the watch. Some do think the crown left oddity on the timegrapher could be a good indication the pallet fork had problems from the get go and changing the beat error incorrectly put a bit too much stress on it?

I dont' know but i wish i did know.

That said I'm now fairly confident doing something as simple as removing a balance assembly so I"m going to do just that on the watch i originally started this thread about before it got stuck in the weeds. I got my naptha and everything i need to try to degrease it so i'm gonna give it a shot this weekend.

If i degrease the hairspring but dont' clean or degrease the pallet jewel should the balance still have sufficient lubrication to operate properly? I don't currently have any lubricants.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Birbdad

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Not frustrated at all! i'm loving every minute of this! 

What i wish is what i could have done to cause this as this watch possibly has a questionable past and had some strange issues from the get go.  Super cheap ebay purchase, fake box and fake pillow. So is this my screw up or did me tinkering just take an already unhealthy watch and make it totally fail? Not knowing that is a bit frustrating because I can't learn from a mistake if i can't identify it.

The other places i'm posting where people are dealing with me can't think of any possible way simply adjusting those etachron levers slightly could break a pallet fork and certainly cant dislodge a diashock and cap jewel. on the other side of the watch. Some do think the crown left oddity on the timegrapher could be a good indication the pallet fork had problems from the get go and changing the beat error incorrectly put a bit too much stress on it?

I dont' know but i wish i did know.

That said I'm now fairly confident doing something as simple as removing a balance assembly so I"m going to do just that on the watch i originally started this thread about before it got stuck in the weeds. I got my naptha and everything i need to try to degrease it so i'm gonna give it a shot this weekend.

If i degrease the hairspring but dont' clean or degrease the pallet jewel should the balance still have sufficient lubrication to operate properly? I don't currently have any lubricants.

Its unlikely that you did anything to cause the problem birb. You stated that the watch had an issue long before you opened it. Probably caused by the locking up escapement due to a loose pallet jewel. You did well to find it and the loose diashock spring. Now you can concentrate on the repair. Its always best practise to perform a full service birb this will provide better results and a better amplitude. But if you are cleaning the hairspring you may as well do the pallet as well. Once you have cleaned them all lubrication is lost in that area. They can both be run dry but only as a short temporary measure, lubrication should be performed before the watch is put to full use. If to just get the watch running again and you only want to deal with the hairspring then yes leave the pallet alone then its lubrication should remain as the pallet stones require a seperate different lube to anything else. But the balance jewels still need to be lubricated if you are going to wear the watch. I know the lubes are quite expensive but it is something you will need if you are disassembling and reassembling 

[Birbdad]

44 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its unlikely that you did anything to cause the problem birb. You stated that the watch had an issue long before you opened it. Probably caused by the locking up escapement due to a loose pallet jewel. You did well to find it and the loose diashock spring. Now you can concentrate on the repair. Its always best practise to perform a full service birb this will provide better results and a better amplitude. But if you are cleaning the hairspring you may as well do the pallet as well. Once you have cleaned them all lubrication is lost in that area. They can both be run dry but only as a short temporary measure, lubrication should be performed before the watch is put to full use. If to just get the watch running again and you only want to deal with the hairspring then yes leave the pallet alone then its lubrication should remain as the pallet stones require a seperate different lube to anything else. But the balance jewels still need to be lubricated if you are going to wear the watch. I know the lubes are quite expensive but it is something you will need if you are disassembling and reassembling 

So to be clear here I have two non running watches now.  

Watch 1 which is the one i started this thread over had the hairspring that was stuck together, probably due to oil.

Watch 2, the one i'm talking about here was running, I tried to regulate it, it worked, then stopped on it's own and is the one with the broken pallet fork and the loose jewel. 

I will probably order all my lubricants from cousins and then attempt a full service on watch 2 in the near future but i can't do much till i find a new pallet fork for this one so i'm going to fully disassemble it, reset the jewel and put it aside till my lubricants arrive.  

Next mission is to try to get watch 1 running by cleaning the hairspring.

What is a good length of time for a naptha soak for a balance assembly?

Edited July 29, 2022 by Birbdad

[Birbdad]

Ok back to the subject of this thread. I pulled out the hairspring of the watch that started this thread (And lost a diashock in the process Goddammit!) , gave it a good 45 minute soak in naphtha and...nothing. The hairspring still is very bunched up on the side. 

Comparing the healthy one from my other watch i'm working on to the bunched up one. Best i can tell it's not bent it almost looks like it's like...off center or something because the hairspring almost seems normal when the balance is out of it's pivot but it automatically springs to an area that's not the pivot.  Both are slotted in their pivots. I demagnetized the watch and then even tried demagnetizing just the hairspring.  Any ideas what's goin on here? the hairspring seems flat and unbent t's just..not where it should be.

[mikepilk]

Have a close look at the spring in the regulator pin and make sure there is clearance. If the regulator is turned too far you can end up with a bunched spring like shown.

[Birbdad]

34 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Have a close look at the spring in the regulator pin and make sure there is clearance. If the regulator is turned too far you can end up with a bunched spring like shown.

Hey, i adjusted it and it worked!  That hairspring is looking a lot more normal now. Whoo!
The pic below is how twisted the pin was. 

This thing just came to life! Fantastic!

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Birbdad

[mikepilk]

Well done. It's easy to turn the adjusters too far and put a bend in the hairspring.