What would make the balance wheel insanely slow on a 7s36b movement?

[Birbdad]

Hey i'm as new as it gets, i don't even have the tools yet to attempt to fix it (First lot including a timegrapher will be delivered on monday.) but one of my 3 seikos, a white dial snzg03 field watch is keeping horrid time and just last night when comparing it to my other 7s26 with an open back I noticed the balance wheel appears to be spinning at about 1/3 the speed of my one keeping good time. I also noticed the regulation lever is yanked almost all the way to the minus position for some reason. The watch has never been opened or abused and is only about 7 years old. It was keeping great time till I didn't wear it for a year or so and just suddenly isn't. It doesn't move a compass but i ran it through one of those cheap blue demagnetizers anyways as that seemed like the logical place to start.

It will be a month or two before i have all the tools to attempt an actual service on it and probably 3 months before i feel confident enough to try a disassembly. I can probably post timegrapher results on monday if my package comes.

Off hand tho on a fairly well kept after not terribly old 7s36b watch what would be the most likely culprit for the VERY slow balance wheel? Just needs a service? Bad hairspring?

[grsnovi]

First off, I might not be as new as you but nearly everyone else who has been on this board since March of this year knows more than I do.

I have always had a philosophy that I need to keep my watches running - so I wind my manual and automatic watches each day. My theory is that if you let the watch sit, the oil is going to get gummy. They say that watches need to be serviced at regular intervals so I'm going to GUESS that yours needs a cleaning and re-lube.

On an old watch I'd suggest that perhaps there was a mainspring issue or a balance pivot issue.

It seems that somebody regulated it at some point but you seem to suggest that it was keeping good time until you let it stop, so I don't know what moving the regulator back to the middle would do after the cleaning/lubrication.

Hopefully once you get your Timegrapher you can sort it out.

[Birbdad]

yeah i'm sorta hoping it's just a gummed up or insufficient lube issue. I would be surprised if somebody regulated it before i got it as it was a sealed new watch in the plastics with all the stickers and all that on the grey market.  

Sounds like i got my first project watch to attempt a service on!

Also very excited that I just found out i'm gonna be able to get a running seiko bellmatic with a pretty pristine looking dial for a song, probably just needs a service and a new crystal and a little polish and will be beautiful.  That's a ways off, i dont' want to dive into something like that too quickly.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Birbdad

[grsnovi]

16 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

it was a sealed new watch in the plastics with all the stickers

So, the regulator was set all the way over when it was new? Maybe that's why it was sold on the grey market? You'd think that it would have left the factory set in the middle.

[Birbdad]

44 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

So, the regulator was set all the way over when it was new? Maybe that's why it was sold on the grey market? You'd think that it would have left the factory set in the middle.

Tbh i don't think i ever looked haha. It either was set there from the factory or got bumped or jostled or drifted over there on it's own.

[JohnR725]

always nice pictures to show us what you're seeing

[Birbdad]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

always nice pictures to show us what you're seeing

I can try and take video footage later tho i don't have a great camera.  A photo won't really show anything.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

A photo won't really show anything.

well in that case there is no need for a picture.

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by JohnR725

[Kalanag]

On 7/17/2022 at 2:04 AM, Birbdad said:

…I noticed the balance wheel appears to be spinning at about 1/3 the speed of my one keeping good time. I also noticed the regulation lever is yanked almost all the way to the minus position for some reason…

It is more than unlikely if not impossible that the balance of an untouched movement slows down by 2/3. Are you sure you mean speed (bps) and not amplitude? If it‘s amplitude there are a lot of possible causes. First of all dirt and/or old lubricant.

EDIT: Sorry for my stupid question. After rethinking I‘m sure you observed a reduced rotational speed of the balance which means a reduced amplitude.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Kalanag

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

well in that case there is no need for a picture.

 

Lol. You're a card john

5 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I can try and take video footage later tho i don't have a great camera.  A photo won't really show anything.

Photos are really important birb they help forum members spot faults that beginners will be unaware of . When you get into repairing you will want to take plenty of these to refer back to. 

On 7/17/2022 at 1:23 AM, grsnovi said:

 

I have always had a philosophy that I need to keep my watches running - so I wind my manual and automatic watches each day. My theory is that if you let the watch sit, the oil is going to get gummy. 

I would have agreed with you here Gary, as in any mechanical device keeping it running would be a fine balance of it not wearing out from overuse and not seizing up from underuse. But my thoughts on that appication to watches  have recently changed. My sister asked me to have a look at a watch that she received for her 21st birthday.  It stopped working over 30 years ago and had been in a drawer ever since. I popped the back off which was very tight and gave it a little poke inside with some rodico, everything seemed ok and the balance wanted to run. I gave it a little encouragement with a puffer and off it went. I put it on the timegrapher and the beat was a yard out at 9.5, regulated that and everthing was running perfect with an amp of 335 and 1 second a day accuracy.  One of the best runners i had seen for a long time, off like a steam train in all positions.  I turned my thoughts as to whether a service was needed. Looked again under the microscope at the jewels and everyone inc. the balance still had fresh fluid oil . No gumming up of oil had occurred at all. This was bought in 1978 so now 44 years old, synthetic oil I'm unsure but possibly.  So my guess is with the back being so tight, this made the inside airtight and so having no degrading of the oil. So John when youve stopped being a card   do you have any thoughts on this or do you need some pictures from me .

[jdm]

On 7/17/2022 at 2:04 AM, Birbdad said:

Off hand tho on a fairly well kept after not terribly old 7s36b watch what would be the most likely culprit for the VERY slow balance wheel?

As said, that's called reduced amplitude, it's the most common problem after "watch stops". It happens with any watch but often reported with Seiko because 1st there are very many more of these, and 2nd, their design construction is more optimized and tight. If you search with the term in quotes, or with Google site search, you will find many discussions on the subject. There is no direct and sure solution, maybe that's why the talk sometime takes tangentially, or remains conjectural and not resolutive.

Anyway, you should really post a good picture of the hairspring taken from dead above, and one by the side. You can also take the regulator back into the middle as that won't make things worse.

Edited July 18, 2022 by jdm

[gbyleveldt]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Lol. You're a card john

Photos are really important birb they help forum members spot faults that beginners will be unaware of . When you get into repairing you will want to take plenty of these to refer back to. 

I would have agreed with you here Gary, as in any mechanical device keeping it running would be a fine balance of it not wearing out from overuse and not seizing up from underuse. But my thoughts on that appication to watches  have recently changed. My sister asked me to have a look at a watch that she received for her 21st birthday.  It stopped working over 30 years ago and had been in a drawer ever since. I popped the back off which was very tight and gave it a little poke inside with some rodico, everything seemed ok and the balance wanted to run. I gave it a little encouragement with a puffer and off it went. I put it on the timegrapher and the beat was a yard out at 9.5, regulated that and everthing was running perfect with an amp of 335 and 1 second a day accuracy.  One of the best runners i had seen for a long time, off like a steam train in all positions.  I turned my thoughts as to whether a service was needed. Looked again under the microscope at the jewels and everyone inc. the balance still had fresh fluid oil . No gumming up of oil had occurred at all. This was bought in 1978 so now 44 years old, synthetic oil I'm unsure but possibly.  So my guess is with the back being so tight, this made the inside airtight and so having no degrading of the oil. So John when youve stopped being a card   do you have any thoughts on this or do you need some pictures from me .

Hey Rich, I see you firing on all cylinders today bud!

You lucky with your sister's watch. I've been slaving away at a bunch of 6309 divers and all of them, bar none, had glue for oil on the cap stones. These are between '78 and '85 vintage and it's been a long time since I've seen such dried up goo in any movement.

Edited July 18, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So John when youve stopped being a card   do you have any thoughts on this or do you need some pictures from me

you know what one of my favorite diagnostic tools is other then using your eyes? Is something that lets you see the invisible the thing that sees the invisible is the timing machine. But I'm guessing the original posting person doesn't have a timing machine.

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Looked again under the microscope at the jewels and everyone inc. the balance still had fresh fluid oil . No gumming up of oil had occurred at all. This was bought in 1978 so now 44 years old, synthetic oil I'm unsure but possibly.

multiple discussions here it leads to my mental confusion especially today. Seiko is supposed to be using synthetic oils at least that's what it says in the tech sheets but? Does Seiko actually use what they recommend on their service and tech sheets?.

a for instance in the shop today work at the boss offers a service. He tells his customers who regulate the watch any watch to Rolex timekeeping. Yes I know what Rolex timekeeping is and he is the boss so he can say whatever he wants. So I get to be entertained with what he's doing. The case of the Seiko watches they usually running pathetic. Of course Seiko is tend to be low amplitude anyway that's not an issue that's a Seiko but at times the really low amplitudes. That means the balance wheel comes out pallet fork comes out it's rinsed off and it's nice and clean again fresh oil fresh oil on the balance jewels to running better and then he regulates them he's got really really  good at that. Customers happy their watches keeping time for now but it does bring up the problem of why does fresh will make it better if the oil synthetic and it's supposed to last forever

oh since I went back to read the original message I see a timing machine is in somebody's future just not fast enough for this discussion but it looks like at least he grasps that that be a good thing to have. Hopefully it's a real timing machine and not a app.

On 7/16/2022 at 5:04 PM, Birbdad said:

snzg03 field watch is keeping horrid time and just last night when comparing it to my other 7s26 with an open back I noticed the balance wheel appears to be spinning at about 1/3 the speed of my one keeping good time. I also noticed the regulation lever is yanked almost all the way to the minus position for some reason. The watch has never been opened or abused and is only about 7 years old. It was keeping great time till I didn't wear it for a year or so and just suddenly isn't. It doesn't move a compass but i ran it through one of those cheap blue demagnetizers anyways as that seemed like the logical place to start.

either way I've attached the tech sheet for the Seiko in question.

As others have noticed it's unlikely somebody is seen the decrease in speed ads in amplitude variation in other words the amplitude sucks.

The regulator position becomes interesting in that wasn't always there? It's back to my fussing about timing machine it be nice to see what it has to say oh and then there's the other little problem of how do you wind this watch up? Wind it up the crown and how many times do shake this watch to wind it up? If you really want to have fun put a little mark on the ratchet wheel in and start shaking I believe JDM would probably know better I think about 11 turns the ratchet wheel and it's considered fully wound up. In other words if your hand shaking the watch the wind it because you're not using a screwdriver to do it the fast way it takes quite a while to line that watch back up again and it's not wound up your aptitudes going to be pathetic

then as far as being seven years old may be did you purchase it at the factory? It depends upon a variety of factors watches made at the factory and then it shipped and did a distributor or sales agent sends it off to its final destination and then you purchase of their it's conceivable your brand-new shiny watch might've been sitting for several years somewhere so I know the watches at least seven years old conceivably older

then the watch was sitting doing nothing for a whole year. Then the amplitude sucks it's always possible the oil is migrated is no longer properly on the pivots plus maybe the lubrication just isn't doing the job anymore either

then the demagnetizer I would ask for a picture but I'm not only get one. Is it a proper demagnetizer for watch repair and do you actually know how to use it? Is a lot of times people don't understand the demagnetizer how it works and instead actually magnetizing watch.

oh and why did I want pictures? For the same reason JDM wanted pictures we wanted know where they hairspring is and we just want to look at it and see if there's something that we see and grass that the original posting person didn't see you grasp. Especially if they hairspring isn't quite where it's supposed to be amazing what interesting are bad things happen if they hairspring is not where it's supposed to be.

 

7S26B_36B.pdf

[Birbdad]

4 hours ago, jdm said:

As said, that's called reduced amplitude, it's the most common problem after "watch stops". It happens with any watch but often reported with Seiko because 1st there are very many more of these, and 2nd, their design construction is more optimized and tight. If you search with the term in quotes, or with Google site search, you will find many discussions on the subject. There is no direct and sure solution, maybe that's why the talk sometime takes tangentially, or remains conjectural and not resolutive.

Anyway, you should really post a good picture of the hairspring taken from dead above, and one by the side. You can also take the regulator back into the middle as that won't make things worse.

I know what amplitude is, and was pretty much expecting it to be borked when i put it on the timegrapher today, i actually didn't even make the connection that if the amplitude is very low it would of course be running slower but it's running REAL slow.

This was the best i could do for photos with the phone cameras i got access to, no idea if it will be useful.

That said for the sake of speculation, let's say it is just gummed up old oil, needs a cleaning and service which would make this a great first project watch. I'm going cheap to start and will be doing the "Lighter fluid and a paintbrush" cleaning method when i tear this thing down. How would i clean the mainspring assembly? Is it robust enough to gently be brushed with a soft fine brush or can i just give it a short soak and little agitation in the naptha? 

Either way appreciate the replies.

EDIT: Got a better shot and added it in. In that second one it does look like one side of that hair spring is pretty stuck together does it not?

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Birbdad

[gbyleveldt]

That last pic looks real suspicious, although you might have caught the balance as it was winding up, not down. But if it looks similar the whole time then that's your issue.

Would be great to have a pic of the timegrapher as well though.

[Birbdad]

8 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

That last pic looks real suspicious, although you might have caught the balance as it was winding up, not down. But if it looks similar the whole time then that's your issue.

Would be great to have a pic of the timegrapher as well though.

FYI that is a stationary balance wheel if by winding up you were talking about it in motion.  The watch is unwound currently. I'll post timegrapher data when I get it later today!

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Hey Rich, I see you firing on all cylinders today bud!

You lucky with your sister's watch. I've been slaving away at a bunch of 6309 divers and all of them, bar none, had glue for oil on the cap stones. These are between '78 and '85 vintage and it's been a long time since I've seen such dried up goo in any movement.

I'm doing ok thank you Gert, I trust and hope you are well. Ive just about shrugged the Covid named cold flu bug thingy off now. Been spending two days sorting through a jumbled up mess of watch stems that i had bought to keep me busy. She did say that she never wore it very often, but i was very surprised to see the oil still in good condition.  I can only put that down to it being in an airtight environment. Haha. I bet you had made my diy movement cleaner now. I can pick you up a second hand pillar drill from the next carboot if you want. 

[jdm]

53 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

How would i clean the mainspring assembly?

Please leave the mainspring barrel alone without even opening it. That is the way that Seiko designed it, and is not the cause of the problem. I understand that you will probably think that I am wrong, and this or that video shows how it's opened and dealt with, but I am talking from direct experience, and the one of very many beginners that had to come to the same conclusion. I also recommend not to use lighter fluid which is made to burn not to clean, and use professional lubricant of which you will need is at least 3 types, and are expensive. Finally, if you have never taken apart a watch mov.t, a Seiko is not the recommended one, simply becuase returning it to the original performance is not so easy as one can think.

Edited July 18, 2022 by jdm

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

I know what amplitude is, and was pretty much expecting it to be borked when i put it on the timegrapher today, i actually didn't even make the connection that if the amplitude is very low it would of course be running slower but it's running REAL slow.

This was the best i could do for photos with the phone cameras i got access to, no idea if it will be useful.

That said for the sake of speculation, let's say it is just gummed up old oil, needs a cleaning and service which would make this a great first project watch. I'm going cheap to start and will be doing the "Lighter fluid and a paintbrush" cleaning method when i tear this thing down. How would i clean the mainspring assembly? Is it robust enough to gently be brushed with a soft fine brush or can i just give it a short soak and little agitation in the naptha? 

Either way appreciate the replies.

EDIT: Got a better shot and added it in. In that second one it does look like one side of that hair spring is pretty stuck together does it not?

 

Gert has this one. Well spotted pardner

[gbyleveldt]

3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

FYI that is a stationary balance wheel if by winding up you were talking about it in motion.  The watch is unwound currently. I'll post timegrapher data when I get it later today!

Ok, so the balance was stationary at that time? So the movement was completely stationary and unpowered? If that's the case then yes, that balance is stuffed. Thing is, these don't break by themselves. Either oil has run down from the end cap jewels down the balance staff or that movement is magnetised. Just guessing based on what I've seen so far

EDIT: Just realised it's 7S36 so no hacking

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm doing ok thank you Gert, I trust and hope you are well. Ive just about shrugged the Covid named cold flu bug thingy off now. Been spending two days sorting through a jumbled up mess of watch stems that i had bought to keep me busy. She did say that she never wore it very often, but i was very surprised to see the oil still in good condition.  I can only put that down to it being in an airtight environment. Haha. I bet you had made my diy movement cleaner now. I can pick you up a second hand pillar drill from the next carboot if you want. 

Ouch bud! That Covid is worse than a bad rum hangover. Some people just shrug it off but when the missus and I came down with it last year we were out of it for over a week. Strongs my man!

Heh, I haven't gotten around to the DIY cleaner yet hey. Lately I want to spend less time with new rabbit holes and just fix some watches man!

Edited July 18, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[watchweasol]

Hi Having read whats going on and the pictures supplied I would agree with Gert that the balance is "stuffed". The only way to check it out is to remove it from the watch lay it on its back with the top pivot in its jewel hole and check the concentrticity of the coils because as Gert said sticky or magnetised or both.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

Ok, so the balance was stationary at that time? And you didn't have it in the hacking setting? So the movement was completely stationary and unpowered? If that's the case then yes, that balance is stuffed. Thing is, these don't break by themselves. Either oil has run down from the end cap jewels down the balance staff or that movement is magnetised. Just guessing based on what I've seen so far

Ouch bud! That Covid is worse than a bad rum hangover. Some people just shrug it off but when the missus and I came down with it last year we were out of it for over a week. Strongs my man!

Heh, I haven't gotten around to the DIY cleaner yet hey. Lately I want to spend less time with new rabbit holes and just fix some watches man!

Haha. Me too. Just about finished my stem sorting, then a load of staffs and hairsprings to look at and pack away, the new jewelling toy to play with then finally, finally start fixing some watches and pocket watches. And while during all that some serious lathe work to learn.

[gbyleveldt]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha. Me too. Just about finished my stem sorting, then a load of staffs and hairsprings to look at and pack away, the new jewelling toy to play with then finally, finally start fixing some watches and pocket watches. And while during all that some serious lathe work to learn.

Man oh man you haven't used your jewelling tool?! Sis, you've been slacking! But it does seem like you have your work cut out for you; a lathe is the one thing I've been avoiding like the plague. Not 'cause I'm not keen but, rabbit holes lol

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, gbyleveldt said:

Man oh man you haven't used your jewelling tool?! Sis, you've been slacking! But it does seem like you have your work cut out for you; a lathe is the one thing I've been avoiding like the plague. Not 'cause I'm not keen but, rabbit holes lol

I know but think of all things you could fix and make with it . Oh and tools that you need to buy to go with it , and the maintenance of it , and the things that could go wrong with it , and the watchparts that could get broken on it .  Yeah mate forget it dont buy one.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Some people just shrug it off but when the missus and I came down with it last year we were out of it for over a week. Strongs my man

Not especially Gert but i do take care of myself. I thinks its more to do with being a sickly child, i had every illness going and known to man, and now apparently unknown to man .  Its more likely that that has made me bullit proof, after all i am Suprman . Haha