Pocket watch - what movement is this?

[Adamantium]

Hey guys,

Having successfully disassembled my first pocket watch, I am struggling to identify the movement.. The only markings i can see are a "144552" stamped on the bottom plate and also the case, and a "40" stamped just on the bottom plate and a "50" on the top plate..

Google hasn't turned up many leads off the back of this info, so i'm a little stumped as it stands as to how to identify this movement..

Pictures attached.

Thanks in advance,
Adam.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Adamantium

[Kappa505]

Knowing the manufacturer of the watch will help. Post a picture of the dial and case. 

[oldhippy]

From what I see I would say its one of those movements where you have a square at the back for setting the hands the square is part of a long pin that goes through the center wheel and is friction tight with the cannon pinion pressed on. It doesn't have the normal keyless work. More then likely it is Swiss or French many of these movements were made on or near the border of both countries.  

[JohnR725]

y

10 hours ago, Adamantium said:

I am struggling to identify the movement

you would like to identify the movement why?

43 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

More then likely it is Swiss or French many of these movements were made on or near the border of both countries. 

when the world moved away from semi hand made watches cottage industry watches and mass production started the Swiss/French flooded the markets with watches like this. The only reason the serial number is there for inventory control purposes there are no spare parts for this watch for instance.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 hours ago, Adamantium said:

Hey guys,

Having successfully disassembled my first pocket watch, I am struggling to identify the movement.. The only markings i can see are a "144552" stamped on the bottom plate and also the case, and a "40" stamped just on the bottom plate and a "50" on the top plate..

Google hasn't turned up many leads off the back of this info, so i'm a little stumped as it stands as to how to identify this movement..

Pictures attached.

Thanks in advance,
Adam.

Eyup Adam or should we be calling this young marvel fan Wolverine. As John has laid out the harsh reality for you this is more than likely only going to be useful for practicing purposes. How much more of the watch do you have and what condition is it in ? Young fella

[Adamantium]

15 hours ago, Kappa505 said:

Knowing the manufacturer of the watch will help. Post a picture of the dial and case. 

See below.

8 hours ago, oldhippy said:

From what I see I would say its one of those movements where you have a square at the back for setting the hands the square is part of a long pin that goes through the center wheel and is friction tight with the cannon pinion pressed on. It doesn't have the normal keyless work. More then likely it is Swiss or French many of these movements were made on or near the border of both countries.  

Yes you're spot on - key-winding and adjustment via two square arbors on the back.
Cannon pinion was a PITA to remove (the movement as a whole is really gunked up with old oil and about 100 years of dust and crap), ended up having to use my staking tool to knock the center pin out the back of the movement - after which i was able to remove the cannon pinion easily.

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

y

you would like to identify the movement why?

when the world moved away from semi hand made watches cottage industry watches and mass production started the Swiss/French flooded the markets with watches like this. The only reason the serial number is there for inventory control purposes there are no spare parts for this watch for instance.

 

Other than being very dirty, everything looks intact. Balance staff isn't broken etc. Although most of the crystals are cracked of partly missing, so i was hoping to get replacements for those and so wanted to know the movement in order to know which sizes i'd need..

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyup Adam or should we be calling this young marvel fan Wolverine. As John has laid out the harsh reality for you this is more than likely only going to be useful for practicing purposes. How much more of the watch do you have and what condition is it in ? Young fella

Haha - I see you know your Marvel!
I guess this will be a good practice movement if getting any replacement parts is a dead end

 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Adamantium

[grsnovi]

You ought to be able to measure the size of the hole in the plate and the size of the pivot hole in the jewel and then order replacement jewels from a supplier like: https://www.ofrei.com/page939.html or Cousins since you're in the UK https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/jewels-pallet-endstone-jewel-holes

Of course, you'll need to be able to knock the broken ones out and carefully insert the new ones and adjust the depth to achieve the correct amount of end shake. This wouldn't be what I would suggest as your first watch repair project.

I know that conventional wisdom seems to be that a first watch repair should be a pocket watch. This is due to the fact that a pocket watch is generally larger and easier to work on than something newer/smaller. Having flopped around with this hobby for several months now I'd offer that your first watch "service" ought to be one known to have been running when you got it. Optionally, a cheap Chinese movement like the Seagull ST36 which is essentially a pocket watch design will allow you to dis-assembly, lubricate and reassemble something that has all the pieces and which ought to run when you're done with it. The ST36 is shipped "dry" from the factory and will require lubrication. It'll cost you 30 bucks.

The problem with the advice of doing a pocket watch is that we all run to eBay, look for a pocket watch and discover they're in pretty bad shape and often with multiple problems (that we may or may not know how to diagnose). Then there is the issue of parts. As JohnR noted above, there isn't a warehouse full of 100 year-old watch parts sorted by make/model. Some of the more common watches that were manufactured in volume (like Elgin or Waltham) are easier to find and often you'll be able to find two movements that do in fact share some parts, but even there you need to be careful because it is very likely that even 2 movements identified with the same designation made years apart will be different enough that most parts won't be swappable (well, probably you can swap screws).

You might put this one aside and think about something else.

Edited July 15, 2022 by grsnovi
added Cousins

[dadistic]

These may not be friction fit jewels. Early pocket watches often had jewels that were burnished into the plate. A small lip was left that after a jewel was set in, which was burnished over the edge of the jewel to hold it in place. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, grsnovi said:

I know that conventional wisdom seems to be that a first watch repair should be a pocket watch. This is due to the fact that a pocket watch is generally larger and easier to work on than something newer/smaller. Having flopped around with this hobby for several months now I'd offer that your first watch "service" ought to be one known to have been running when you got it. Optionally, a cheap Chinese movement like the Seagull ST36 which is essentially a pocket watch design will allow you to dis-assembly, lubricate and reassemble something that has all the pieces and which ought to run when you're done with it. The ST36 is shipped "dry" from the factory and will require lubrication. It'll cost you 30 bucks.

your first watch shouldn't be a repair at all. your first watch should be exactly what the paragraph above says it should be a running watch in known condition. People need to develop hand eye coordination and successfully reassembled a running watch and verify it is still running. that ideally they should practices several times as you really need to do it several times to get good at holding your tools tweezers etc.  then your first servicing or cleaning should be something newer not vintage where it becomes restoration/repair. Also the other problem with vintage especially if it wasn't running is you may just be doomed to failure because it just may not run at all. Vintage watches have gone through lots of hands and they weren't always kind to the watch.

 

[Adamantium]

Thanks for all your responses guys.

I think i'll set this one aside for now and take your advice by starting on a known running watch (of which i luckily have several).

Cheers,
Adam.

[jdm]

I don't agree with the idea that the first watch a beginner attacks has to be a working one. The evidence is a total beginner will typically do many typical mistakes which will turn one into a broken piece of for sure.

Working in the wrong position, without a soft mat, on carpt carpet floors. Then being proud of having lost "only one screw". That still one too little in my book.

Handling the hairspring  / balance with heavy hands, or having "unfortunate accidents" and driver slips.  One can't realize how delicate it is before trying. I won't link the horror pictures here.

Breaking screws because they were not market left. Or because they had to be left, but they were right.

Getting impatient or  frustrated, then force and break something consequently.

Myself for one have do all the mistakes above, and then some of my own creation.

If you have any love for your watches, or your reputation if it's not yours, especially about unreplaceable heirlooms or of some value, leave them alone. Practice first on something wortless, even a quartz cheapie, just to learn how to handle tools and parts correctly. Even if you have watches videos that make that look easy, you may find that is not.

Sure, that won't tell you if you are able to put back together a working watch. But, that's not all what matters, you will get there eventually, but having spared few innocent victim in the meanwhile.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

I don't agree with the idea that the first watch a beginner attacks has to be a working one. The evidence is a total beginner will typically do many typical mistakes which will turn one into a broken piece of for sure.

For the most part I agree 100% with what you've written.

Unfortunately newbies are very very destructive when learning watch repair. there is usually a failure to grasp that watch repair isn't easy it requires time to learn and lots of practice forever you'll be practicing and getting better. then newbies want to jump in right away they don't want to start slow they don't want to practice on a broken watch and if they do start on a broken watch we have a discussion like this where they think they're going to fix the watch.

so a clarification on the definition of a running watch to start with. Not just any running watch but a brand-new Chinese clone of the Swiss 6497 or 6498.  this watch is chosen because as a large size it's easy to see it's inexpensive and no one cares if it gets destroyed in the process of learning.  then the reason for running watch is after a new be practices taken apart and putting it together multiple of times it should still be running. If it's not running because the pivots broken oor the hairsprings destroyed or whatever it was running before and it's not running now well that's a good lesson on why you want to start on something disposable.

 

[jdm]

1 minute ago, JohnR725 said:

.Not just any running watch but a brand-new Chinese clone of the Swiss 6497 or 6498.  this watch is chosen because as a large size it's easy to see it's inexpensive and no one cares if it gets destroyed in the process of learning.

Yes. By today standars $40 is inexpensive, for an hobby that easily sets one back $200 for very basic tools. But, we also know that there is people that joins with highest ambition without having even tried. Guess what, being good with cars or generic DIY is not enough when it come to watch movements, So all I'm trying to do is convincing people to get a grasp of what's that about without spending any money. So the Chinese Unitas can have a more glorified end being cased, still working, into a custom watch which one can say to have made himself.

[grsnovi]

4 hours ago, Adamantium said:

by starting on a known running watch (of which I luckily have several).

I'm not suggesting that you start on a running watch of your own that you wear. If it isn't apparent from what JohnR and jdm have said, you're very likely to trash it. My point was to use the same movement that Mark L suggests be used in his 2nd self-paced, online course. In fact - sign-up and take the course! Follow along with Mark.

Having arrived here by watching innumerable YT success videos where NOTHING goes wrong and not a single screw or spring goes awry and the end result is a beautiful, working watch ticking away with only +/- 1 or 2 seconds per day  after being serviced by a pro with ALL of the necessary tools - you end up with a skewed idea of how it's going to be the first hundred times.

My suggestion is that by picking a 100 year-old watch that isn't running you will first need to figure out why and unless you've worked on some and figured it out you're not likely going to have a clue. Then there's the whole question of parts (which kind of started this back and forth).

If you are going to have to buy something to start on, consider that buying a Seagull ST36 may be a better choice than an equally expensive, un-working pocket watch.

[Adamantium]

Firstly, thank you TJohnR, jdm and grsnovi for your honest advice. It is both appreciated and taken wholeheartedly on board.

Let me clarify that when i say;

5 hours ago, Adamantium said:

by starting on a known running watch (of which i luckily have several).

I mean very cheap (but working) and purchased with the exact intention of disassembling and reassembling many many times over, without worrying about anything breaking or getting damaged in the process (which I know will of course happen).

I will look to get a 6497 or 6498 clone to add to the mix. Thank you.

3 hours ago, jdm said:

Guess what, being good with cars or generic DIY is not enough when it come to watch movements

I love this blunt honesty, and i'm glad i've found a forum where there are people happy to dispense it.  

I haven't entered into this hobby naively, I appreciate both the steep learning curve and the reality that there are no shortcuts or substitute for (many many hours of) hands-on experience. That's also what makes me want to do it!
I suspect it will be months at least before i even thinking about touching a watch i care about even slightly, let alone one i wear

Thanks again for all the feedback, I look forward to many further discussions in the future.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Kappa505]

"The only source of knowledge is experience; good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions"

I say go for the pocket watch you started. Worst case scenario is you don't fix an already broken watch while gaining a wealth of experience in part finding and trouble shooting.

Best case scenario is essentially the same as worst case scenario except you fix a broken watch. 

Only you know the real reason you started this hobby. Stay true to that you can't go wrong no matter what you decide to do. 

Measure the jewels you need I have some laying around maybe they will fit. 

https://sallysales.patternbyetsy.com/listing/526583888/vintage-hallmarked-silver-open-face

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, Adamantium said:

Thanks for all your responses guys.

I think i'll set this one aside for now and take your advice by starting on a known running watch (of which i luckily have several).

Cheers,
Adam.

I'm a bit confused here Hugh ( I'll give you a little while to figure that one, a bright lad like you shouldn't take you very long ). Are you new to watch repair ? Your bench and equipment seems well set up.

10 hours ago, jdm said:

I don't agree with the idea that the first watch a beginner attacks has to be a working one. The evidence is a total beginner will typically do many typical mistakes which will turn one into a broken piece of for sure.

Working in the wrong position, without a soft mat, on carpt carpet floors. Then being proud of having lost "only one screw". That still one too little in my book.

Handling the hairspring  / balance with heavy hands, or having "unfortunate accidents" and driver slips.  One can't realize how delicate it is before trying. I won't link the horror pictures here.

Breaking screws because they were not market left. Or because they had to be left, but they were right.

Getting impatient or  frustrated, then force and break something consequently.

Myself for one have do all the mistakes above, and then some of my own creation.

If you have any love for your watches, or your reputation if it's not yours, especially about unreplaceable heirlooms or of some value, leave them alone. Practice first on something wortless, even a quartz cheapie, just to learn how to handle tools and parts correctly. Even if you have watches videos that make that look easy, you may find that is not.

Sure, that won't tell you if you are able to put back together a working watch. But, that's not all what matters, you will get there eventually, but having spared few innocent victim in the meanwhile.

I have to admit this is exactly how i started, but then I've always been one to jump in at the deep end. Maybe not everyone's approach but it does seem to work for this crazy fool that i am

5 hours ago, Adamantium said:

Firstly, thank you TJohnR, jdm and grsnovi for your honest advice. It is both appreciated and taken wholeheartedly on board.

Let me clarify that when i say;

I mean very cheap (but working) and purchased with the exact intention of disassembling and reassembling many many times over, without worrying about anything breaking or getting damaged in the process (which I know will of course happen).

I will look to get a 6497 or 6498 clone to add to the mix. Thank you.

I love this blunt honesty, and i'm glad i've found a forum where there are people happy to dispense it.  

I haven't entered into this hobby naively, I appreciate both the steep learning curve and the reality that there are no shortcuts or substitute for (many many hours of) hands-on experience. That's also what makes me want to do it!
I suspect it will be months at least before i even thinking about touching a watch i care about even slightly, let alone one i wear

Thanks again for all the feedback, I look forward to many further discussions in the future.

Cheers,
Adam.

Good lad, bright, intuitive, keen, understanding, honest and appreciative. You are a welcome addition to the forum.

3 hours ago, Kappa505 said:

"The only source of knowledge is experience; good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions"

I say go for the pocket watch you started. Worst case scenario is you don't fix an already broken watch while gaining a wealth of experience in part finding and trouble shooting.

Best case scenario is essentially the same as worst case scenario except you fix a broken watch. 

Only you know the real reason you started this hobby. Stay true to that you can't go wrong no matter what you decide to do. 

Measure the jewels you need I have some laying around maybe they will fit. 

https://sallysales.patternbyetsy.com/listing/526583888/vintage-hallmarked-silver-open-face

Nice one Kappa. The who dares wins approach

[oldhippy]

I always suggest starting with a pocket watch (not the fusee tyoe) I have posted my suggestion many times on here, no need to get it working my idea is very much like jdm. They are very much like a basic watch movement only much bigger, you will learn how to use your tweezers and your screw drivers and if you are using an eye glass you will learn how to use that. Learn the names of all the parts. If it come apart take it apart as they say practice makes perfect. I cringe each time I see a new member saying I've got my dads Omega Auto and I intend to make it my first watch repair.   

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

no need to get it working my idea is very much like jdm. 

Agree with hippy and jdm here. I think the problem here as Gary has said many times over is the expectation of the learner. And then the disappointment of most likely not seeing it work. But as explained here it does not need to work its a practice piece to learn tool handling at a more managable scale just a big bonus if it does work. Heaven knows why i started at 8 1/4 ligne and then down to one of my missus watches a quartz at only 5 something, the train wheels were ridiculous and the rotor had me pulling my hair out for over an hour ( yes I am an idiot ).

[KarlvonKoln]

I think we, as commentators, have a responsibility too.  As was mentioned, we must consider the expectation of the learner. Whether a learner has a preference to learn on an old pocket watch movement that does not run, or on a new but inexpensive watch that runs, the rest of us should take that preference into account when we give advice to encourage one thing, or discourage another.  We've been down many of the pitfalls that the learner has not, but our warnings about them should be voiced in as gentle a way as possible; it is hard to guess one's tone of voice from the printed text.
If a learner decides to start with an inexpensive non-running pocket watch, we should gently remind them that the greater goal of learning good habits and proper procedures supersedes any goal of getting the thing running.  If the learner does get it running later, then that's "icing on the cake", but even if it is not running in the end, the learner will still understand that there was much knowledge gained along the way, and that knowledge and practice was important.  And at the very least, the learner can learn what was needed in order for that watch to run.
If a learner decides to start with an inexpensive new movement that runs, then learning about repair will still happen and, unless something breaks, if the watch runs properly at the end, then learner will know what they did to make it so.  And if not, then the learner will know the potential is there, and they can continue to work and learn until the watch does run.
There are benefits to either path.  For my humble contribution, I think the only kind of movements I'd discourage a learner from buying for practice are: repeaters, chronographs, things with day & date, brand new Rolex, an expensive family heirloom with low production run, or something obscure like a Grasset with a helical mainspring or a Breguet with a ruby cylinder.  The vast majority of timepieces fall outside of that short list, so there are still plenty to choose.  But our guidance can emphasize the positives of the experience, even where the learner fails to accomplish a result they had in mind.  And practice, good and proper practice, learning good habits from bad and so forth, is an incredibly valuable thing here.  A difficult watch can discourage some of the most determined individuals; we experienced folk should do all we can not to become an additional source of discouragement.

[jdm]

16 hours ago, Adamantium said:

I suspect it will be months at least before i even thinking about touching a watch i care about even slightly, let alone one i wear

I must apologize, it had escaped me before that by the pictures you posted we see you have got professional tools, and are are well organized and determined.

At this point there is 'only' to verify that your watch is whole and all good except for the broken jewels, which you will need to get, and possibly adapt in size. As said, these are of the rubbed in type, something that has been discussed various times in the past, so use the search function or Google site search. Certainly it would be better if you were to practice first their replacement on a scrap mov.t.

As long you are patient and cautious, and able to invest the needed time and money there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to get this watch running within a not too long time, good luck.

Edited July 16, 2022 by jdm

[Neverenoughwatches]

45 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

I think we, as commentators, have a responsibility too.  As was mentioned, we must consider the expectation of the learner. Whether a learner has a preference to learn on an old pocket watch movement that does not run, or on a new but inexpensive watch that runs, the rest of us should take that preference into account when we give advice to encourage one thing, or discourage another.  We've been down many of the pitfalls that the learner has not, but our warnings about them should be voiced in as gentle a way as possible; it is hard to guess one's tone of voice from the printed text.
If a learner decides to start with an inexpensive non-running pocket watch, we should gently remind them that the greater goal of learning good habits and proper procedures supersedes any goal of getting the thing running.  If the learner does get it running later, then that's "icing on the cake", but even if it is not running in the end, the learner will still understand that there was much knowledge gained along the way, and that knowledge and practice was important.  And at the very least, the learner can learn what was needed in order for that watch to run.
If a learner decides to start with an inexpensive new movement that runs, then learning about repair will still happen and, unless something breaks, if the watch runs properly at the end, then learner will know what they did to make it so.  And if not, then the learner will know the potential is there, and they can continue to work and learn until the watch does run.
There are benefits to either path.  For my humble contribution, I think the only kind of movements I'd discourage a learner from buying for practice are: repeaters, chronographs, things with day & date, brand new Rolex, an expensive family heirloom with low production run, or something obscure like a Grasset with a helical mainspring or a Breguet with a ruby cylinder.  The vast majority of timepieces fall outside of that short list, so there are still plenty to choose.  But our guidance can emphasize the positives of the experience, even where the learner fails to accomplish a result they had in mind.  And practice, good and proper practice, learning good habits from bad and so forth, is an incredibly valuable thing here.  A difficult watch can discourage some of the most determined individuals; we experienced folk should do all we can not to become an additional source of discouragement.

Yes what Karl just said . Lol. I would have wrote the same but I'm busy kicking the C. Manflu into touch and sorting out 20,000 watch stems. Nicely put buddy