Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

Well, sorry but here again guys, I bought myself an Omega from eBay, it’s a 1010 movement.

I’ve serviced it and tested it on my Timegrapher and got it to 2 seconds a day, great……..but, when I wear it it gains 5 mins in 3 hours!!! Leave it on dresser overnight and it keeps perfect time, wear it again and it gains like stink. Totally baffled, it only gains when worn.

Anyone any ideas, don’t really want to send it to Omega as they will charge what I paid for it, but it’s such a great looking watch I don’t want to just get rid of it either, attached photos 

A9FD6667-815C-49BB-A3F2-A00D2D4FFEA6.jpeg

F75D2F9C-60D8-44E6-A5CA-470E6874800A.jpeg

48E96CED-6414-4320-A068-9123073D797F.jpeg

Posted

Hi Guys

Afraid I don’t know the answer to that, Nucejoe, very much a novice…..

Regarding the timegrapher, I have to admit that I only tested it facedown and level, however just tested it in all 6 positions and have some very varied results;

face down -9 sec.  .2 beat error

face up.     -97.        1.2

crown down +39.    .1

crown up.   +17.        .7

crown left. +89.       .8

crown right -70.      2.1

amplitude varies between 145 to 358
 

looks like I need to get this sorted professionally and stick to charity shop models for now, only do my own.

Sill enjoying this fascinating hobby despite the frustrations 

Posted
8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

unadjusted, does that mean its not a chronograde? 

It's common practice for watches imported into this country to state that is not adjusted so they don't have to pay a higher tax. At least at one time I'm not sure if the tax still exists but they used to have a tariff on watches so the more jewels the more regulations etc. the higher you pay so they would just say unadjusted even though we know it was adjusted.

11 minutes ago, Gra said:

Regarding the timegrapher, I have to admit that I only tested it facedown and level, however just tested it in all 6 positions and have some very varied results;

Always nice to test the watch in more than one position because often times interesting things will turn up. It would also be nice if you could give us some pictures we like pictures not just numbers.

12 minutes ago, Gra said:

amplitude varies between 145 to 358

We really need pictures and the amplitude is unacceptable. It's either way too low or way too high in either case both of them are unacceptable

13 minutes ago, Gra said:

looks like I need to get this sorted professionally

Before you run away let's see what the timing machine results look like like pictures Of each of the six positions

 

Posted

Hi Nucejoe

Out at the moment but when I return I’ll post photos of the timegrapher results.

Thanks for the explanation I didn’t know that, often wondered why it said that but never got round to checking it out, always seemed to be trying to find the spring that pinged 😄

Posted
12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Oh boy, I know poising balance will make a watchrepairer out of me. 

It says unadjusted, does that mean its not a chronograde? 

 

I think you should attempt it.

I did my first balance poising a couple of months ago. It was a cheap Russian alarm watch that was behaving so badly that I couldn't make any worse. So I just bit the bullet and poised it.

Would I dare poise an Omega? Probably not. Let me practice on a few more Mumbai specials first. 🤣

  • Thanks 1
Posted

How could an Omega balance become so out of poise ?

With such a variation in amplitude, it's got to be more than the balance poise ! 

Before even considering poising, I'd want to get dial up/dial down much closer (<10s) than 89s difference, and with similar amplitude.

Is there a big difference in amplitude DU/DD ?

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Posted

Ok guys, 

fully wound it up and put it back on timegrapher with these results, photos show watch position then grapher

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It's common practice for watches imported into this country to state that is not adjusted so they don't have to pay a higher tax. At least at one time I'm not sure if the tax still exists but they used to have a tariff on watches so the more jewels the more regulations etc. the higher you pay so they would just say unadjusted even though we know it was adjusted.

Always nice to test the watch in more than one position because often times interesting things will turn up. It would also be nice if you could give us some pictures we like pictures not just numbers.

We really need pictures and the amplitude is unacceptable. It's either way too low or way too high in either case both of them are unacceptable

Before you run away let's see what the timing machine results look like like pictures Of each of the six positions

 

shot..E0DF804B-FC11-4CDD-A765-A23AC838D7C2.thumb.jpeg.4e5291bf7cb4a11ee26a643d39d6336b.jpeg0FB64C14-D288-4429-9A3A-486D9A3303FA.thumb.jpeg.7a01587458d15b7654bc6618c9c7b025.jpeg7499EB12-7354-4FB5-BEB6-DD9F7CDB129C.thumb.jpeg.b4f82c19738002a6ad56a98746515544.jpegA699ED70-7C4C-443D-9E9B-D92A37E65514.thumb.jpeg.85a3d11e24d7062cf0384c0686e82aca.jpeg00D2C135-A2A9-48AB-A9CF-9179A03565E3.thumb.jpeg.4b0ebe1550c63506c5b5c836834f1807.jpegAE13D8A7-855E-459C-AF2C-4CD95A07BB14.thumb.jpeg.ceeda01dcce6360f8a26fdcd5eba73db.jpegA968C67C-0406-4F09-B60C-C5759DFAC3FA.thumb.jpeg.71a694366c52dc1d9cc7c3d8c19346fd.jpeg12C3DFBB-45D8-428D-BC2A-D1007D496D4A.thumb.jpeg.8f505c80568e74697f050330bbe815c1.jpeg06164F14-28D6-4D35-ADF4-D0D4457889B1.thumb.jpeg.554e37c1bc3cff8725d694218562560b.jpeg8A48A474-8E39-4878-A991-1FAC3CB7F418.thumb.jpeg.0fe5468edf03e44a14f73d96546f1b96.jpeg32CACBC1-6D7F-4DB4-AD3F-48E20D8C17A5.thumb.jpeg.b199351ed2dcba6da8390d67fc611c35.jpegC1190F1B-78D1-43C5-8CBA-A53C00BEE194.thumb.jpeg.37fcfc589d90984a7b72988efc62484b.jpeg

Posted
16 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

How could an Omega balance become so out of poise ?

With such a variation in amplitude, it's got to be more than the balance poise ! 

Before even considering poising, I'd want to get dial up/dial down much closer (<10s) than 89s difference, and with similar amplitude.

Is there a big difference in amplitude DU/DD ?

Hi Mike,

The difference is massive, I’m completely out of my depth here.

Had some good results with Montine’s and MuDu’s feeling very disheartened at the moment but determined to improve 😁

Posted

Did you demagnetize it? 

Have you had a close look at the hairspring whilst running (loupe or ideally microscope) to see if any coils are sticking together ?

If your phone records slow motion video, you can get good results by just holding a loupe over the lens. 

Posted
1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

How could an Omega balance become so out of poise ?

With such a variation in amplitude, it's got to be more than the balance poise ! 

Before even considering poising, I'd want to get dial up/dial down much closer (<10s) than 89s difference, and with similar amplitude.

Is there a big difference in amplitude DU/DD ?

Outstanding somebody read my mind you cannot Use poising to fix other problems that this watch definitely has which is why I wanted the pictures not the numbers.  Often times people don't understand what they're looking at on the timing machine and will disregard the graphical display and not realize its importance to verify the numbers. I sometimes use a saying of garbage in garbage out if the graphical display shows garbage that's what you have this regard the numbers.

1 hour ago, Gra said:

fully wound it up and put it back on timegrapher with these results, photos show watch position then grapher

Several thing is we need to establish a proper timing procedure. I snipped out something from an Omega manual and a picture of your watch. Your watch appears to have a plastic movement ring? Cased up watches can present problems for timing machine plastic movement rings tend to be more problematic. Ideally for timing the best you would do it with just the movement out of the case. But if it's cased up that's not a problem as long as the crown is facing out. The sensor for the microphone is under the that end and the crown then will give you the best signal if it's facing that direction otherwise it's problematic to get a good signal and a bad signal will lead us down a bad path of diagnostics.

Then timing the watch fully wound up is slightly misleading? It depends on the watch company in the watch but basically wind it up and let it run at least 15 minutes up to one hour. The watch needs a little time to stabilize and you can actually get too much power which would give you bad numbers. So you need it to run for little bit of time and then you can start timing. Typical a for an average allow 30 seconds when changing positions for the watch to stabilize and measure for about 30 seconds. Paying attention to what the numbers do when you're watching the display in other words do they seem be randomly changing or do they stabilize at the stabilize that's good their randomly whatever that's bad so you need the watch the display and the numbers.

 

50 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Did you demagnetize it? 

Have you had a close look at the hairspring whilst running (loupe or ideally microscope) to see if any coils are sticking together ?

If your phone records slow motion video, you can get good results by just holding a loupe over the lens. 

 

In order for the timing machine to actually be valid Several things have to occur. You need to visually look at the watch to see what it's doing.  You need to look at the graphical display and the numeric display and see that they agree. Random dots on the graphical display invalidates the numbers.  Often times you can see balance wheels running extremely poorly in the timing machine may give you happy numbers that don't really exist which is why all three have to look similar.

18 hours ago, Gra said:

I’ve serviced it

And by servicing would you describe your procedure and your lubrication procedure plus did you demagnetized it?

Because some of the results look so horribly bad I become suspicious of any of the results.

I would look really carefully at the hairspring and look at how the balance wheel is oscillating. Hairsprings are the number one problem for people and watch repair. It's really hard to see if there'd actually doing what they're supposed to be doing in other words is it flat is it opening and closing properly is it rubbing on something like the balance arms for instance the amazing how much amplitude and how bad it will look on the timing machine if it's not flat and it's touching the balance wheel.

 

Omega proper use of timing machine.JPG

Omega timing machine problem.JPG

Posted

Hi,

I’ve demagnetised it and tried slo-mo video, hard to see, checked with a loupe and I can’t see the hairspring sticking or fouling anywhere, although the majority of the flexing seems to be under the mounting bridge.

Servicing was stripping down, cleaning with Isopropyl alcohol in ultrasonic, in rebuild I lubricated using D5, Möbius 8200, Möbius 8223 and Möbius 9010 following a YouTube video of another rebuild (I could not find an oil chart)

Thanks for all the great info and help by the way guys I really appreciate it.

Tried to add slo-no footage but it’s unsupported format.

 

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It's common practice for watches imported into this country to state that is not adjusted so they don't have to pay a higher tax. At least at one time I'm not sure if the tax still exists but they used to have a tariff on watches so the more jewels the more regulations etc. the higher you pay so they would just say unadjusted even though we know it was adjusted.

Always nice to test the watch in more than one position because often times interesting things will turn up. It would also be nice if you could give us some pictures we like pictures not just numbers.

We really need pictures and the amplitude is unacceptable. It's either way too low or way too high in either case both of them are unacceptable

Before you run away let's see what the timing machine results look like like pictures Of each of the six positions

 

Posted

 John , that amplitude (   341°  )  is not valid   is it?   and (  its certainly not caused by sticking or rubbing hairspring, not even by spring being outside the regulator slot ), If it were an actual 341° amplitude I'd go to pallet adjustment, also  numeric displays in vertical positions wont tell much , for amplitude  is  low. 

Does graphic display here, show you something I might be missing.

Thank in advance.

 

 

Posted
7 minutes ago, Gra said:

Servicing was stripping down, cleaning with Isopropyl alcohol in ultrasonic,

Did you clean the pallet fork and balance in alcohol too?

Recently I had a watch giving crazy results like this too. I was going to poise it but I found that the balance wheel was perfectly poised. 

Then I noticed that the shellac on the pallet fork didn't look good. So I reshellaced it and the problem was solved.

Posted
1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

John , that amplitude (   341°  )  is not valid   is it? 

For the most part any time I see numbers like that reality were seeing something exactly the opposite. If you look at the graphical display it appears to be random dots and that means the numbers will be wrong. If you get super low amplitudes the waveform gets stretched the timing machine looks at the wrong part and will give you numbers like this so it's probably just the opposite of what were seeing.

 

1 hour ago, Gra said:

Servicing was stripping down, cleaning with Isopropyl alcohol in ultrasonic, in rebuild I lubricated using D5, Möbius 8200, Möbius 8223 and Möbius 9010 following a YouTube video of another rebuild (I could not find an oil chart)

Watch companies today tend to be really paranoid or at least they appear paranoid over how the documentation's are distributed. For instance the cousins link below gives you a tiny sampling of Omega working instructions. Download any that look nice but 40 and 81 would be good. Then look at the corner of each of the pages did notice how it tells you where it came from?

The problem with watermarking each page and wondering how paranoid the watch company is means that no one's going to give you a modern tech sheets for fear the loser Swatch group account. Which is sad because Omega's newer documentations are much better than the old stuff. In addition to the working instructions they have general instructions which cover generic thing is general to specific calibers like this one which would be helpful to have it still won't fix your problem though but more unlikely there's a general instruction sheet for this out there somewhere.

how did you lubricate the escapement?

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=Working

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Recently I had a watch giving crazy results like this too. I was going to poise it but I found that the balance wheel was perfectly poised. 

Always good to check for shellac on the pallet fork and roller table just in case it's gone missing. Isopropyl alcohol shouldn't be an issue we use it at work in our cleaning machine. But what will be an issue is improper cleaning fluids used by others and that can definitely be an issue. So always best to check the jewels and make sure the roller jewel is nice and tight wobbling roller jewel can give all kinds of interesting issues except? The exception would be these issues would a shown up in all the traces not just some of them

It would be interesting they their time the watch out of the case or flip it over so the crown is pushing against the sensor there is a possibility we may still be having improper pickup even though it is only occurring in some positions which is weird I've sometimes seen this on Seiko watches were the timing machine has a hard time picking up the watch. This is where it's usually best just to take the movement out of the case in time the movement in the microphone and eliminate the casing issue all together

 

 

 

 

214_Omega1010,1011,1012,1020,1021,1022NEWS-1 cousins.pdf 214_Omega1010,1011,1012,1020,1021,1022NEWS-1 cousins.pdf

  • Thanks 1
Posted

 I have made a habbit of putting the balance and cock back on the mainplate ( with no other part installed )to check how the coil breaths, its levelness, flatness and make adjustments before reassembly, it will save you a lot of time folks. 

  • Like 3
Posted
12 hours ago, mikepilk said:

How could an Omega balance become so out of poise ?

Ya,   another brain fart. Seem to increase as I get older. 

Posted
13 hours ago, mikepilk said:

How could an Omega balance become so out of poise ?

It could, if it was bought off eBay. You never know what the watch went through.

Posted
43 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

It could, if it was bought off eBay. You never know what the watch went through.

Right. I too expect the impossible with watches bought on ebay. 

But numbers look decent face down, so was time keeping on bench, so first suspect should have been a hairspring issue.

Regard

Posted

Cheers Nucejoe, 

I’ll try to make that part of my rebuild routine. A lot to take in here but getting some great advice.

Graham

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

Sorry it's been a while, been really busy, however, I'm back to the Omega 1010.

Trying out some of the suggestions so stripping the watch down again and thought I'd first have a look at the balance spring of the base plate while stripping rest down and the hairspring looks to be over one side, checked that the pivot was seated ncorrectly and took this photo. Could this be the source of my problems?

Sorry for quality of photo, had to get really close so lighting was dificult.

Graham

WIN_20220329_19_31_10_Pro.jpg

Posted

1934773757_WIN_20220329_20_00_37_Pro(2).thumb.jpg.ed49bf24399e88d25ca38ff379e62146.jpg

I've put the balance back in and taken this photo from the side on angle. It's hard to say, but does the balance look angled?

It pivots really well keeping going for 15 seconds....

Posted

The coil looks alright but terminal curve should be paralel to other coils, sorting it out would center the coil.

Does balance wobble? balance ring should be level. 

Can you post the video you recorded? 

I check side shakes on the staff too and pivots should not leave the gem holes.

I gather you didn't remove balance jewels to check, could still be dirty or pieces of chipped off. 

Regs

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • One of the problems with trying to Photograph Phils things are that his enjoyment was building these things so they tended to E falls on what will see if I can find some earlier pictures or any pictures I wasn't even sure because I was looking for that specific picture for somebody else and even it got the last version and that would have been the last version. You will note that he put the indexing on something that he could unscrew it or whatever and it can slide back out of the way so the rest of the lathe can be used as a lathe. With the lathe cut are actually coming down from the top I was there once where he demonstrated how to cut a pivot with the setup it was really beautiful. Older set up if I remember it's not a worm gear assembly in the thing in between the stepping motor and the holding block I believe this particular one was like a 100 to 1 gear ratio. Earlier version with watchmaker's lathe. Even looks like he is the watchmakers bed and then switch to something he made. Then I do have other pictures and things of the rotary stage in use. In the raw so if you tube videos here is an example of one were somebody's mounting a three jaw chuck. At one time there were available on eBay they were not cheap but if you're patient like I was I found one cheap on eBay. After you watch the video it look at his other videos he is a whole bunch of other examples of the same rotary stage. That I do know there are other pictures examples and possibly videos you just have to track them down. One of the minor issues of finding this particular tech sheet for the unit is I believe it was a custom manufacturer and the company change their name but I remember the new name here's a link to the company https://www.ondrivesus.com/rino-mechanical-components                
    • Escapement adjusting always interesting and depending upon the reference always confusing. Okay maybe it's not always confusing but it does lead to confusion. I have a PDF below it's actually a whole bunch of separate stuff including a hand out that came from a lecture that's on you tube. Then from that we get this image Consequences of doing things especially if you do things out of order or you do things for the wrong reason. Oh and even if the watches working I made the mistake one so showing my boss how tweaking the banking pins on a full plate on the timing machine made the amplitude get better and now he thinks that's what they're for and I don't think a fully grasped exactly what horn clearance means. Consequence of doing things. Notice what it says about opening and closing the banking pins and total lock? So yes I've had that on a full plate where it won't unlock at all and that's the banking pins or a combination of things basically. So banking pins unfortunately get moved. One of the ways to tell if it's been moved is the look straight down at the end of the fork with the balance wheel removed. Power on the fork push at the one side look at it push it to the other side also look at it and compare anything with the center reference the balance jewel and see if both sides of the same. No guarantee after the same there in the right place but at least are the same typically when people play with things one side will be way off from the other because they had no idea what they were doing at all because of course it's a full plate and you really have to paying attention and even then there's still hard to do. Then the other thing that comes up like it shows below is people often adjust the banking pins to do all those other things as opposed to horn clearance which is all that it's therefore and maybe bonus Guard pin clearance although you're supposed to deal with the guard pin is a separate thing like single roller gets bent in Or out or sometimes physically gets moved in and out. Some full plates older escapement's typically pallet forks held together with screws and you can actually unscrew and move the entire assembly in Or out more complications to deal with.     Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf
    • If he was much younger and some sort of sports player it wouldn't be a problem. They would be in there and doing surgery and he'd be back on the field in no time. Unfortunately when you get older little things are bad and big things can be really bad so not good at all.
    • Where I work everything incoming watches whatever detailed descriptions are taken entered into a computer program and photograph of each item. Then ideally although it depends on who's doing the paperwork detailed descriptions can be quite good other times there lacking. Like I really like it with pocket watches if they would record the serial number it avoids confusion later on. Then when watch repairs are completed that is also entered in. It's one of the amusements I learned when I was in school instructor had a shop and commented about the important aspect of keeping detailed records of repairs. Because oftentimes a customer who got a new crystal will come back later on when the watch doesn't work and expect you to fix the entire watch for free. Then you can remind them that they just got a crystal. Strangely enough that keeps coming up or occasionally comes up where I work now. One of the problems of using the service marks on the case is that in the case of pocket watches oftentimes that's not the original case. Then case marks? What I was doing warranty work for a company I used to describe a code number in the back of the case and it would tell me the next time I see the watch that basically what I did I made no attempt at keeping track of customers because we had literally thousands of them I think they sold 30,000 of these watches and they would come back by the hundreds because they had a lifetime warranty. Yes that's a story all of itself but I would put a code number that would reference what was done to the watch the last time and think I had a date in there somehow so it did tell a story if you knew the code. Another shop I once worked out the number would reference the page in the book. So other than knowing we had been in there you would have no idea what happened because you have to go look at the page in the book to see what happened. Then the problem of how you examine a watch you should examine the watch in detail every single time to avoid complications. Although on vintage watches and this is a of amusement I have at work when people ask something and I say of the watches done when it leaves. This is because on vintage oftentimes problems won't show up until the watches much farther into the repair like it's now running and you discover things that you can't discover before because it wasn't running to discover them that also become sometimes difficult to have exact rigid prices are estimates of repairs or in the case of a pocket watch you may not find out if a casing problem to later on when you case it up in the watches running. I was just thinking for all those people that would like to leave a mark maybe you should learn to do what some of the past watchmakers did? Leave a mark but leave it in such a way that no one will ever find it? Typically not done for repair purposes but done for other reasons like identifying it's legit. I have a friend with a Gruen watch and one of the Roman numbers the bottom line that just looks like a line under extreme magnification actually says Gruen watch company or something equivalent. So here's a link showing how to mark your watch without being seen although that's not the actual title. So if you can learn micro engraving you can engrave the watch someplace probably just about any place you just have to remember where you put it. https://cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com/obsessions/how-to-prove-if-watches-are-authentic-secret-signatures-182516  
    • I have acquired a Citizen Leopard 36000 watch. My reason for purchasing it was my desire to own a timepiece with a 36,000 BPH movement, and the price was reasonable. Another motivating factor was gaining hands-on experience with the mechanism. The watch is in good condition, but I intend to fully disassemble it for maintenance. First and foremost, if anyone has prior experience with this particular model, I would greatly appreciate their insights. I do not have access to Citizen’s specialized lubricants and will need to use the ones available to me, such as 9010, 8000, and 8300 grease. Additionally, I do not possess the appropriate oil for the pallet jewels and will only be able to clean them.
×
×
  • Create New...