Omega 1010

[Gra]

Well, sorry but here again guys, I bought myself an Omega from eBay, it’s a 1010 movement.

I’ve serviced it and tested it on my Timegrapher and got it to 2 seconds a day, great……..but, when I wear it it gains 5 mins in 3 hours!!! Leave it on dresser overnight and it keeps perfect time, wear it again and it gains like stink. Totally baffled, it only gains when worn.

Anyone any ideas, don’t really want to send it to Omega as they will charge what I paid for it, but it’s such a great looking watch I don’t want to just get rid of it either, attached photos 

[HectorLooi]

When you tested it on the timegrapher, did you test it in all 6 positions or just dial down?

[Nucejoe]

 Oh boy, I know poising balance will make a watchrepairer out of me. 

It says unadjusted, does that mean its not a chronograde? 

 

[Gra]

Hi Guys

Afraid I don’t know the answer to that, Nucejoe, very much a novice…..

Regarding the timegrapher, I have to admit that I only tested it facedown and level, however just tested it in all 6 positions and have some very varied results;

face down -9 sec.  .2 beat error

face up.     -97.        1.2

crown down +39.    .1

crown up.   +17.        .7

crown left. +89.       .8

crown right -70.      2.1

amplitude varies between 145 to 358
 

looks like I need to get this sorted professionally and stick to charity shop models for now, only do my own.

Sill enjoying this fascinating hobby despite the frustrations 

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

unadjusted, does that mean its not a chronograde? 

It's common practice for watches imported into this country to state that is not adjusted so they don't have to pay a higher tax. At least at one time I'm not sure if the tax still exists but they used to have a tariff on watches so the more jewels the more regulations etc. the higher you pay so they would just say unadjusted even though we know it was adjusted.

11 minutes ago, Gra said:

Regarding the timegrapher, I have to admit that I only tested it facedown and level, however just tested it in all 6 positions and have some very varied results;

Always nice to test the watch in more than one position because often times interesting things will turn up. It would also be nice if you could give us some pictures we like pictures not just numbers.

12 minutes ago, Gra said:

amplitude varies between 145 to 358

We really need pictures and the amplitude is unacceptable. It's either way too low or way too high in either case both of them are unacceptable

13 minutes ago, Gra said:

looks like I need to get this sorted professionally

Before you run away let's see what the timing machine results look like like pictures Of each of the six positions

 

[Gra]

Hi Nucejoe

Out at the moment but when I return I’ll post photos of the timegrapher results.

Thanks for the explanation I didn’t know that, often wondered why it said that but never got round to checking it out, always seemed to be trying to find the spring that pinged

[HectorLooi]

12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Oh boy, I know poising balance will make a watchrepairer out of me. 

It says unadjusted, does that mean its not a chronograde? 

 

I think you should attempt it.

I did my first balance poising a couple of months ago. It was a cheap Russian alarm watch that was behaving so badly that I couldn't make any worse. So I just bit the bullet and poised it.

Would I dare poise an Omega? Probably not. Let me practice on a few more Mumbai specials first. 

[mikepilk]

How could an Omega balance become so out of poise ?

With such a variation in amplitude, it's got to be more than the balance poise ! 

Before even considering poising, I'd want to get dial up/dial down much closer (<10s) than 89s difference, and with similar amplitude.

Is there a big difference in amplitude DU/DD ?

[Gra]

Ok guys, 

fully wound it up and put it back on timegrapher with these results, photos show watch position then grapher

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It's common practice for watches imported into this country to state that is not adjusted so they don't have to pay a higher tax. At least at one time I'm not sure if the tax still exists but they used to have a tariff on watches so the more jewels the more regulations etc. the higher you pay so they would just say unadjusted even though we know it was adjusted.

Always nice to test the watch in more than one position because often times interesting things will turn up. It would also be nice if you could give us some pictures we like pictures not just numbers.

We really need pictures and the amplitude is unacceptable. It's either way too low or way too high in either case both of them are unacceptable

Before you run away let's see what the timing machine results look like like pictures Of each of the six positions

 

shot..

[Gra]

16 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

How could an Omega balance become so out of poise ?

With such a variation in amplitude, it's got to be more than the balance poise ! 

Before even considering poising, I'd want to get dial up/dial down much closer (<10s) than 89s difference, and with similar amplitude.

Is there a big difference in amplitude DU/DD ?

Hi Mike,

The difference is massive, I’m completely out of my depth here.

Had some good results with Montine’s and MuDu’s feeling very disheartened at the moment but determined to improve

[mikepilk]

Did you demagnetize it? 

Have you had a close look at the hairspring whilst running (loupe or ideally microscope) to see if any coils are sticking together ?

If your phone records slow motion video, you can get good results by just holding a loupe over the lens. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

How could an Omega balance become so out of poise ?

With such a variation in amplitude, it's got to be more than the balance poise ! 

Before even considering poising, I'd want to get dial up/dial down much closer (<10s) than 89s difference, and with similar amplitude.

Is there a big difference in amplitude DU/DD ?

Outstanding somebody read my mind you cannot Use poising to fix other problems that this watch definitely has which is why I wanted the pictures not the numbers.  Often times people don't understand what they're looking at on the timing machine and will disregard the graphical display and not realize its importance to verify the numbers. I sometimes use a saying of garbage in garbage out if the graphical display shows garbage that's what you have this regard the numbers.

1 hour ago, Gra said:

fully wound it up and put it back on timegrapher with these results, photos show watch position then grapher

Several thing is we need to establish a proper timing procedure. I snipped out something from an Omega manual and a picture of your watch. Your watch appears to have a plastic movement ring? Cased up watches can present problems for timing machine plastic movement rings tend to be more problematic. Ideally for timing the best you would do it with just the movement out of the case. But if it's cased up that's not a problem as long as the crown is facing out. The sensor for the microphone is under the that end and the crown then will give you the best signal if it's facing that direction otherwise it's problematic to get a good signal and a bad signal will lead us down a bad path of diagnostics.

Then timing the watch fully wound up is slightly misleading? It depends on the watch company in the watch but basically wind it up and let it run at least 15 minutes up to one hour. The watch needs a little time to stabilize and you can actually get too much power which would give you bad numbers. So you need it to run for little bit of time and then you can start timing. Typical a for an average allow 30 seconds when changing positions for the watch to stabilize and measure for about 30 seconds. Paying attention to what the numbers do when you're watching the display in other words do they seem be randomly changing or do they stabilize at the stabilize that's good their randomly whatever that's bad so you need the watch the display and the numbers.

 

50 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Did you demagnetize it? 

Have you had a close look at the hairspring whilst running (loupe or ideally microscope) to see if any coils are sticking together ?

If your phone records slow motion video, you can get good results by just holding a loupe over the lens. 

 

In order for the timing machine to actually be valid Several things have to occur. You need to visually look at the watch to see what it's doing.  You need to look at the graphical display and the numeric display and see that they agree. Random dots on the graphical display invalidates the numbers.  Often times you can see balance wheels running extremely poorly in the timing machine may give you happy numbers that don't really exist which is why all three have to look similar.

18 hours ago, Gra said:

I’ve serviced it

And by servicing would you describe your procedure and your lubrication procedure plus did you demagnetized it?

Because some of the results look so horribly bad I become suspicious of any of the results.

I would look really carefully at the hairspring and look at how the balance wheel is oscillating. Hairsprings are the number one problem for people and watch repair. It's really hard to see if there'd actually doing what they're supposed to be doing in other words is it flat is it opening and closing properly is it rubbing on something like the balance arms for instance the amazing how much amplitude and how bad it will look on the timing machine if it's not flat and it's touching the balance wheel.

 

[Gra]

Hi,

I’ve demagnetised it and tried slo-mo video, hard to see, checked with a loupe and I can’t see the hairspring sticking or fouling anywhere, although the majority of the flexing seems to be under the mounting bridge.

Servicing was stripping down, cleaning with Isopropyl alcohol in ultrasonic, in rebuild I lubricated using D5, Möbius 8200, Möbius 8223 and Möbius 9010 following a YouTube video of another rebuild (I could not find an oil chart)

Thanks for all the great info and help by the way guys I really appreciate it.

Tried to add slo-no footage but it’s unsupported format.

 

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It's common practice for watches imported into this country to state that is not adjusted so they don't have to pay a higher tax. At least at one time I'm not sure if the tax still exists but they used to have a tariff on watches so the more jewels the more regulations etc. the higher you pay so they would just say unadjusted even though we know it was adjusted.

Always nice to test the watch in more than one position because often times interesting things will turn up. It would also be nice if you could give us some pictures we like pictures not just numbers.

We really need pictures and the amplitude is unacceptable. It's either way too low or way too high in either case both of them are unacceptable

Before you run away let's see what the timing machine results look like like pictures Of each of the six positions

 

[Nucejoe]

 John , that amplitude (   341°  )  is not valid   is it?   and (  its certainly not caused by sticking or rubbing hairspring, not even by spring being outside the regulator slot ), If it were an actual 341° amplitude I'd go to pallet adjustment, also  numeric displays in vertical positions wont tell much , for amplitude  is  low. 

Does graphic display here, show you something I might be missing.

Thank in advance.

 

 

[HectorLooi]

7 minutes ago, Gra said:

Servicing was stripping down, cleaning with Isopropyl alcohol in ultrasonic,

Did you clean the pallet fork and balance in alcohol too?

Recently I had a watch giving crazy results like this too. I was going to poise it but I found that the balance wheel was perfectly poised. 

Then I noticed that the shellac on the pallet fork didn't look good. So I reshellaced it and the problem was solved.

[Gra]

Hi Hector,

Balance and Pallet fork were cleaned in a separate jar of Essence of Renata.

Graham

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

John , that amplitude (   341°  )  is not valid   is it? 

For the most part any time I see numbers like that reality were seeing something exactly the opposite. If you look at the graphical display it appears to be random dots and that means the numbers will be wrong. If you get super low amplitudes the waveform gets stretched the timing machine looks at the wrong part and will give you numbers like this so it's probably just the opposite of what were seeing.

 

1 hour ago, Gra said:

Servicing was stripping down, cleaning with Isopropyl alcohol in ultrasonic, in rebuild I lubricated using D5, Möbius 8200, Möbius 8223 and Möbius 9010 following a YouTube video of another rebuild (I could not find an oil chart)

Watch companies today tend to be really paranoid or at least they appear paranoid over how the documentation's are distributed. For instance the cousins link below gives you a tiny sampling of Omega working instructions. Download any that look nice but 40 and 81 would be good. Then look at the corner of each of the pages did notice how it tells you where it came from?

The problem with watermarking each page and wondering how paranoid the watch company is means that no one's going to give you a modern tech sheets for fear the loser Swatch group account. Which is sad because Omega's newer documentations are much better than the old stuff. In addition to the working instructions they have general instructions which cover generic thing is general to specific calibers like this one which would be helpful to have it still won't fix your problem though but more unlikely there's a general instruction sheet for this out there somewhere.

how did you lubricate the escapement?

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=Working

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Recently I had a watch giving crazy results like this too. I was going to poise it but I found that the balance wheel was perfectly poised. 

Always good to check for shellac on the pallet fork and roller table just in case it's gone missing. Isopropyl alcohol shouldn't be an issue we use it at work in our cleaning machine. But what will be an issue is improper cleaning fluids used by others and that can definitely be an issue. So always best to check the jewels and make sure the roller jewel is nice and tight wobbling roller jewel can give all kinds of interesting issues except? The exception would be these issues would a shown up in all the traces not just some of them

It would be interesting they their time the watch out of the case or flip it over so the crown is pushing against the sensor there is a possibility we may still be having improper pickup even though it is only occurring in some positions which is weird I've sometimes seen this on Seiko watches were the timing machine has a hard time picking up the watch. This is where it's usually best just to take the movement out of the case in time the movement in the microphone and eliminate the casing issue all together

 

 

 

 

214_Omega1010,1011,1012,1020,1021,1022NEWS-1 cousins.pdf 214_Omega1010,1011,1012,1020,1021,1022NEWS-1 cousins.pdf

[Nucejoe]

 I have made a habbit of putting the balance and cock back on the mainplate ( with no other part installed )to check how the coil breaths, its levelness, flatness and make adjustments before reassembly, it will save you a lot of time folks. 

[Nucejoe]

12 hours ago, mikepilk said:

How could an Omega balance become so out of poise ?

Ya,   another brain fart. Seem to increase as I get older. 

[HectorLooi]

13 hours ago, mikepilk said:

How could an Omega balance become so out of poise ?

It could, if it was bought off eBay. You never know what the watch went through.

[Nucejoe]

43 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

It could, if it was bought off eBay. You never know what the watch went through.

Right. I too expect the impossible with watches bought on ebay. 

But numbers look decent face down, so was time keeping on bench, so first suspect should have been a hairspring issue.

Regard

[Gra]

Cheers Nucejoe, 

I’ll try to make that part of my rebuild routine. A lot to take in here but getting some great advice.

Graham

[Gra]

Sorry it's been a while, been really busy, however, I'm back to the Omega 1010.

Trying out some of the suggestions so stripping the watch down again and thought I'd first have a look at the balance spring of the base plate while stripping rest down and the hairspring looks to be over one side, checked that the pivot was seated ncorrectly and took this photo. Could this be the source of my problems?

Sorry for quality of photo, had to get really close so lighting was dificult.

Graham

[Gra]

I've put the balance back in and taken this photo from the side on angle. It's hard to say, but does the balance look angled?

It pivots really well keeping going for 15 seconds....

[Nucejoe]

The coil looks alright but terminal curve should be paralel to other coils, sorting it out would center the coil.

Does balance wobble? balance ring should be level. 

Can you post the video you recorded? 

I check side shakes on the staff too and pivots should not leave the gem holes.

I gather you didn't remove balance jewels to check, could still be dirty or pieces of chipped off. 

Regs