My first repair attempt. Elgin 345

[ManSkirtBrew]

Got this guy off eBay to practice on before moving on to cleaning and lubricating a nice Elgin pocketwatch I have. Thought I'd share my progress.

I got the hands off without issue, then dressed up my screwdrivers and loosened the dial retaining screws. Two of them backed out no problem, and one just spun in place. I decided to take the movement apart from the back and see what I could do.

It didn't come with a crown attached, so I carefully let down the mainspring by holding the winding wheel with pegwood and pushing the click aside.

After that, disassembly was uneventful, other than everything being positively caked with crud. Every screw thread was totally gummed up.

Also, thank you to the YouTube creators out there, without whom I'd never have known the crown wheel screw was reverse-threaded, and probably would have snapped it off.

Finally, I was able to sneak the tip of an X-Acto knife into the hole for the last dial foot and ease it back out, when the dial kindly fell off for me.

And here's where I'm at. Next is closer inspection and cleaning. I have a 10x loupe, but it's inexpensive and I'm currently trying to decide between a couple of nice watchmaker's loupes, a stereo microscope, or a video microscope.

Maybe a demagnetizer, too. I have one of those square ones that you pull the tools through, but I cannot for the life of me demagnetize my tweezers. I mostly used the carbon fiber tipped ones and pegwood to move things around.

It also looks like I'm going to need a new stem and crown if I'm going to wind it up and test my work when it's done. Looking forward to that!

 

[jdm]

46 minutes ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I'm currently trying to decide between a couple of nice watchmaker's loupes, a stereo microscope, or a video microscope.

Loupes are always needed for general work unless your eyes are able to work without.  A microscope is just an extra for when a strong lens won't do. 

 

46 minutes ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Maybe a demagnetizer, too. I have one of those square ones that you pull the tools through, but I cannot for the life of me demagnetize my tweezers.

Don't pull through, start with the part near and pull away like 30cm in 2 or 3 secs.

[ManSkirtBrew]

21 hours ago, jdm said:

Don't pull through, start with the part near and pull away like 30cm in 2 or 3 secs.

Thanks, I'll give that a try today.

 

21 hours ago, jdm said:

Loupes are always needed for general work unless your eyes are able to work without.  A microscope is just an extra for when a strong lens won't do.

I also understand the focal distance is a lot longer than a loupe, and being able to use them sitting up straight feels like it'd be a good benefit to my aching back.

As with any hobby, I'm sure it's mostly personal preference and how one learned--there seems to be a 50/50 split between people who say they seldom use their loupes now that they have one, and those who say they only use it for certain tasks.

Edited January 1, 2022 by ManSkirtBrew

[jdm]

49 minutes ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I also understand the focal distance is a lot longer than a loupe, and being able to use them sitting up straight feels like it'd be a good benefit to my aching back.

You can't use a microscope for general watchmaking work, for a variety of reasons. One is that you loose wide vision and have something in between. When at the microscope you would struggle on seeing and picking up the next part to be assembled. Please try yourself to understand what I mean. Perhaps visors can be used, but not a microscope. 

Anyway if you are bending and hurting your back then you are working in the wrong position. You need to have the bench top at armpit height, which means raise the bench, lower the seat, or both. That is the only way to work with elbows resting on the bench. That will your hands will be steady, and you will work more precisely and for a longer time. And your back and neck will be pretty much straight all the time. 

 

49 minutes ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

As with any hobby, I'm sure it's mostly personal preference and how one learned

Personal preference is one thing but I suggested that you watch some videos or read books about how professional watchmakers work and what they teach others. Stereo microscopes have existed for decades but cannot replace a loupe. 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Thanks for the advice. I was being a bit glib, but your points are taken and loupes are en route.

Being just a hobbyist, I'm in it for the fun and education. Although to be fair, my brewing business also started as a hobby...

[Plato]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

You can't use a microscope for general watchmaking work

You can, search for 'chronoglide' on YouTube. It's unorthodox but probably good practice if you have a bad back (like myself). 

[ManSkirtBrew]

5 hours ago, Plato said:

You can, search for 'chronoglide' on YouTube. It's unorthodox but probably good practice if you have a bad back (like myself). 

Thanks for that. This is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about.

[jdm]

11 hours ago, Plato said:

You can, search for 'chronoglide' on YouTube. It's unorthodox but probably good practice if you have a bad back (like myself). 

Alight. Now my question is, do you really need a microscope for simple work e.g. take apart a standard mov.t in? if so, why? Personally I don't, and I don't need a loupe either, but if you do, try without, maybe your eyes just need a bit of "training on the job".

Then, the watchmaker in the video doesn't really show how he uses it. I would like to see if he has to frequently move his face away from the scope e.g. when putting back or picking parts from the dust tray. If he does, that not an optimized way to work IMHO.

Interestingly, the same watchmaker (and a lot of precision machinists now) also has a digital microscope on his milling machine, with a conveniently positioned screen. These are the same type used for electronic rework and repair, there is nothing on your face and you only have to position your hands to do the work (which of course the watchmaker does exactly as I tried to explain before in this topic). So you can just glance around to keep the entire work scene "under control". I appreciate than that would be a valid alternative for precision work, e.g. shock spring refitting, hairspring manipulation etc. Of course a good (trinocular) microscope would offer both capabilities even at the same time.

That being said, I believe that anyone that has never done any watchmaking work should try first the humble traditional ways before deeming these unsuitable to him and proceed to invest big money and effort into something different. 

[KarlvonKoln]

I agree with JDM here.  I think it is best to begin with the simple aspects of the work, and get used to using our more basic tools, before investing in some very expensive equipment.  Myself, I am so near-sighted that I often just take my glasses off to do watch work, and I do not generally need any aids for the more common tasks, as I can see and count the threads on a screw which holds in a screw-mount jewel with my naked eye.  I will choose a loupe sometimes to look at the side-shake on a pivot as a watch runs, or some other thing that I wish to see in greatest detail.  And I have a microscope for inspecting jewels for cracks, and inspecting parts for wear or metal fatigue. 
For aching backs, what the others say is about the best advice we can give: raise your work surface up closer to your eyes, rather than lowering your face to the work surface.  A watchmaker's bench has a higher work surface than most for that reason.  It may feel strange to you at first if you are used to working at an ordinary table, but you will soon adapt and realize the benefit.  Your back will thank you.  I went one step further and purchased a kneeling chair to go with my desk and aid my posture.  It is wonderful.
When I knew I was ready to do the work that would require them, I bought the loupes.  When I knew I would be ready to replace jewels, I brought in my microscope.  "Jumping in with both feet" is very expensive (unless you are wealthy) and wasteful if this becomes a passing fancy.  But given the enthusiasm I am reading between the lines of your post, I think you may be well on your way.  This watch of yours is a size 12s, somewhat larger than most wrist watches, and you know your eyes - if you need a headband-mounted loupe, I'd get one.  But most things should be undertaken more easily by just raising your work up toward your eyes.

[Plato]

7 hours ago, jdm said:

Alight. Now my question is, do you really need a microscope for simple work e.g. take apart a standard mov.t in? if so, why? Personally I don't, and I don't need a loupe either, but if you do, try without, maybe your eyes just need a bit of "training on the job".

Not for everything, no. Just instead of when a strong loupe is needed.

I don't think my eyesight has got any worse since my last test... I might book one soon as it's been a few years.

[Plato]

42 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

For aching backs, what the others say is about the best advice we can give: raise your work surface up closer to your eyes, rather than lowering your face to the work surface.

I've been meaning to do this too but I found that a second hand microscope was a cheaper and more versatile option.

I used to kneel on the floor.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Plato
Missed a bit

[JohnR725]

On 12/31/2021 at 12:00 PM, ManSkirtBrew said:

It didn't come with a crown attached, so I carefully let down the mainspring by holding the winding wheel with pegwood and pushing the click aside.

Typically on American pocket watches the crown comes in the case. Then the preferred method of letting power off would be to use a bench key. I'm attaching a photograph typically that come in a set of three.  There are some other variations of how they come but typically this is what the look like a series of squares that Correspond to the typical American pocket watch sizes. Because the cases were made by other people there does tend to be a standard for how big the squares are.

 

On 12/31/2021 at 12:00 PM, ManSkirtBrew said:

Also, thank you to the YouTube creators out there, without whom I'd never have known the crown wheel screw was reverse-threaded, and probably would have snapped it off.

A  all too often mistake as typically that screw is always left-handed most of the time. Notice the peculiar wording? An American pocket watches or all watches there can or will be left-handed screws. Recognizing it's a problem later on with some companies they would put additional marks on the screw head see you could tell that it goes the other direction. But it does become a problem on pocket watches in that it's not always 100% that all screws in a certain position will always be left-handed. So either you have to know that it's left-handed or you just have to be really careful or just really lucky and not break it off.

On 12/31/2021 at 12:00 PM, ManSkirtBrew said:

And here's where I'm at. Next is closer inspection and cleaning. I have a 10x loupe, but it's inexpensive and I'm currently trying to decide between a couple of nice watchmaker's loupes, a stereo microscope, or a video microscope.

One of the thing is really important to remember with microscopes is it doesn't magically make things easier to see if you don't know what you're looking at or for. Yes he can make things bigger but bigger isn't necessarily better if you don't know what you're looking at or what the problem is.

On 12/31/2021 at 12:00 PM, ManSkirtBrew said:

Maybe a demagnetizer, too. I have one of those square ones that you pull the tools through, but I cannot for the life of me demagnetize my tweezers. I mostly used the carbon fiber tipped ones and pegwood to move things around.

We've covered that somewhere recently in a discussion. Just don't remember where the discussion was . Is this is one of the square ones that doesn't use power that has the stepped opening in it it's basically worthless as a demagnetizer in watch repair. It does work but it works under some very specific conditions Which is most definitely not watch repair. But we really need a picture to make sure were describing the same thing. As there's a small square one that plugs in that does work providing you understand how to use it

[ManSkirtBrew]

Thanks for the thorough reply!

21 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Typically on American pocket watches the crown comes in the case.

I finally realized this after finding another recent post where someone thought their stem was broken. I did not know about bench keys, though, and will see if I can find myself some.

21 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

A  all too often mistake as typically that screw is always left-handed most of the time.

Hah! It's like working on a Ford But yeah, based on the videos I've watched, I have noticed there's no such thing as always.

21 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Is this is one of the square ones that doesn't use power that has the stepped opening in it it's basically worthless as a demagnetizer in watch repair.

Yes, that's it--the kind you'd use with a screwdriver. I just happened to have it on hand, so I tried it first. I've got a plate demagnetizer on its way. It seems like those inexpensive blue ones tend to burst into flames, so I got one of these. Maybe overkill size-wise, but I can use it in the workshop, too. I'll let you know how it works.

[ManSkirtBrew]

I started reassembly, and am learning to use the oilers while I'm at it. Slow and steady.

I wanted to pull the bottom balance cap jewel. I carefully took both screws out, then pushed out both jewels with a piece of pegwood. Does it look like someone tried to push the hole jewel out the wrong side at some point? Or maybe it took a hard drop? The edges are really chewed up, and I would guess there's supposed to be a little ledge for the jewel setting to sit in?

The cap jewel has a little chip in it, but since it's out at the edge I'm thinking it'll be okay enough for this practice movement. I put a wee drop of 9010 on the center of it and carefully reinstalled.

Then I got a start on the keyless works, and here's where I took a break and poured a glass of Scotch.

[JohnR725]

Unfortunately the pictures are too fuzzy for what I'm looking for. You might find the website below interesting. If you of an Elgin and you know which grated is it will give you parts list. It appears to be that the balance hole jewel's upper and lower are identical

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Oh hey, thanks for that site. Super useful. It's amazing what web searches *don't* come up with.

And yeah, the pictures are with my phone through a loupe. Best I can do at the moment.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

It's amazing what web searches *don't* come up with.

Yes one of the unfortunate problems in the universe is not everything is findable online even if it does exist online. Then of course there's a lot of stuff that just isn't online the material houses for instance don't list every single part they have in possession of a lot of watch material is out there but you can't find it online.

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Well this is certainly a beautiful sight. The patient survived!

https://i.imgur.com/TmGianN.mp4

Putting the balance wheel back in was seriously nerve-wracking for my first attempt, and it took many tries to get it right. But when it fell into place and the heart started beating, oh man!

As for the lower balance jewel, I found another video that showed some good closeups, and it's definitely supposed to have a ledge. Someone buggered this plate up in the past.

I don't have a timegrapher, so a phone app will have to do for now. After a little regulation...not too bad for my first try!

I appreciate all the help so far. Next on the list is fixing a dial foot, and possibly re-threading the stripped dial foot screw hole in the plate.

[JohnR725]

51 minutes ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Well this is certainly a beautiful sight. The patient survived!

I know it's a phone apps so I'm supposed to ignore certain things but the surviving patient isn't ready to leave the hospital yet? It be nice to see a running watch that you haven't serviced on your timing app because otherwise the lines look a little on the rough side in other words there supposed to be parallel straight lines not what were seeing their.

Out of curiosity how did you lubricate the escapement?

[ManSkirtBrew]

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I know it's a phone apps so I'm supposed to ignore certain things but the surviving patient isn't ready to leave the hospital yet

heh, no doubt. I only have two other mechanical watches on hand, first another Ebay Elgin 345 that I haven't touched:

Nailed it.

Then I've got a Majesti 17 jewel made in China watch that my wife got me from Sears many, many years ago. I know it's losing several minutes a day.

And then I went on YouTube and looked up the sound of an Omega Speedmaster running, which should be about as accurate as I can get:

9 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Out of curiosity how did you lubricate the escapement?

A tiny dot of HP-1300 on the contact faces of the two pallet jewels. Moebius 9010 on the cap jewel for the bottom balance pivot, and on all of the hole jewels. I used this as a guide, to the best of my current abilities:

[ManSkirtBrew]

Also, turns out the app has a "high sensitivity" mode that was turned off. This is the movement with it on:

[Plato]

13 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

A tiny dot of HP-1300 on the contact faces of the two pallet jewels

That's not the recommended oil for pallet jewels... although I don't know the science behind why. Probably OK to test the running of the movement but I wouldn't leave it on there.

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

A tiny dot of HP-1300 on the contact faces of the two pallet jewels.

 

4 minutes ago, Plato said:

hat's not the recommended oil for pallet jewels... although I don't know the science behind why. Probably OK to test the running of the movement but I wouldn't leave it on there.

That is definitely an interesting choice from the oil? Yes now that you had a fun test pull the pallet fork out rinse it off and let's try for something different? Then as you have 9010 you can use that on the pallet fork.

13 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I used this as a guide, to the best of my current abilities:

It's an interesting guide the problem is it's out-of-date. We've covered this before the watch companies are going for greater quantities of oil a lot of that you have is good but the quantity of oil and the pivots if you do what they consider acceptable it's now considered unacceptable because it's not enough oil.

I have a link to a PDF below which covers lubrication when you get the escapement part they are going super minimalistic but there also using a grease. As you're going to be using 9010 you don't have to be that super minimalistic. Plus as you're learning you can see that the heavy oil probably wasn't the best for the escapement doesn't really heard anything but something lighter should be better. Then one of the downfalls of your timing app I don't see amplitude? Because this is where improper lubrication would really show up you would build to see the difference between something really good and really bad.

13 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Moebius 9010

Oh and because were dealing with a pocket watch and because the trend is for heavier lubricants I would think about getting a heavier oil if you're going to do pocket watches. I do pocket watches and I use zero 9010 my light oil is 9020 and As far as I can tell I've had never had a loss of amplitude because it's not that much heavier really. It also has a nicer characteristic of it tends to not spread as much as 9010 because it is a little bit heavier.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=Working+40

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Thanks for the advice. I used the HP-1300 because I reasoned the sliding friction of the jewel on the escape wheel would be higher and ask for a slightly heavier lubricant, but I really should have looked it up. And now I know better.

And thanks for the PDF as well. That will be very useful.

Edit: I just got to the escapement lubrication pages, and they recommend 9415 grease on the pallet jewel impulse face. That seems like the polar opposite of 9010.

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by ManSkirtBrew

[Marc]

1 hour ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I just got to the escapement lubrication pages, and they recommend 9415 grease on the pallet jewel impulse face. That seems like the polar opposite of 9010.

Don't be fooled by the word grease, 9415 is a very clever grease, it is what is called thixotropic, which means that under normal contitions it behaves like a grease, but when it is hit by a pallet stone it momentarily becomes a super slippery liquid before reverting to a grease again. The result is a lubricant that is thick enough to stay in place when it's not lubricating anything, but which becomes fluid enough at just the right moment to do its job.