Mainspring lubrication, manual and automatic

[rjenkinsgb]

I've only ever used Moebius 8213, which they class as a "strong" braking grease.

I can't remember where I saw the recommendation for that; it was before I found this site.

 

[Birbdad]

6 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

I've only ever used Moebius 8213, which they class as a "strong" braking grease.

I can't remember where I saw the recommendation for that; it was before I found this site.

 

8217 is pretty common here, possibly one of the more common ones. I wonder if my issue is since i can only find tutorials using kluber i have to be using way less, Like maybe 3 smears instead of five smears? I dunno. I know kluber is very very sticky so maybe you're supposed to use more of it.

On 4/24/2022 at 7:50 PM, Mircea said:

Found the good thread, There is the answer that I gave in another thread, sorry for that.

Hello PeterS

I have had success with Moebius 8217 on the barrel wall of a 6138B movement, that use the same base mechanism as the 6106a. All seems to be good with power reserve of about 46 hours (that I find very good for a 45 year watch and mainspring…)

Hope it helps!

Mircea

Hey can you give me some sort of frame of reference for how much 8217 you use and get good results with?

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

So i've serviced about a dozen watches but one thing i've never done much cuz i've struggled with mainspring winders (Mostly got em down now thank god.) is barrel servicing. I'd just get a new barrel complete. I'm servicing a 7s26 and using 8217 and iv'e done this twice over and my amp is falling short at about 245 in the dial positions. I'm using the gr2377x general resorts mainspring, my first time with a generic and i just cannot get proper amp out of it but people assure me here it is the correct mainspring for the job. 

Does any body have a frame of reference for how much breaking grease i should be using with the 8217? My first go i used 5 little dabs, about what i see most pros use in their videos (Usually they use kluber though). It felt like the bridle was slipping too easy and amp was bad and the wind felt weak. This time i used about half the amount and just little smears and wind felt much stronger, but again it feels a bit weak after troubleshooting other issues that could be causing the low amp, almost like after a few turns the bridle is slipping but i can never FEEL it slip. 

Is there a sure fire way to troubleshoot whether you overlubricated the barrel? Is 8217 like far more sensitive or slippery than kluber? I've never seen a demo using 8217 for breaking grease.

Col is back in the house ,good evening young man. And if you keep mentioning not enough amplitude  @JohnR725 will explode, probably with an array of good reasons that you should stop mentioning it, starting with he's about to explode

[rjenkinsgb]

10 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Hey can you give me some sort of frame of reference for how much 8217 you use and get good results with?

Three or four dabs, then smeared around the barrel wall so it's not just pushed away when the spring is installed.

Basically, enough so it looks like it will give a continuous film once the spring is fitted and starts slipping.

 

[Birbdad]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Col is back in the house ,good evening young man. And if you keep mentioning not enough amplitude  @JohnR725 will explode, probably with an array of good reasons that you should stop mentioning it, starting with he's about to explode

Lol, i know i don't need the extra 30 degrees of amplitude but i CAN get it. I feel like if i'm not, i did something not up to par. It's not a matter of necessity but learning best practices and getting things done right. 

And hey, good to see ya again! Got the watch bug again and excited to do a couple projects so ill be hanging here a bit more often for awhile. Got my bellmatic sitting here in pieces, got my grandpas beautiful eta 2451. You got any insight into this? There's gotta be a way to know whether you overgreased a barrel or something? You been doin this longer than me. 

4 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

Three or four dabs, then smeared around the barrel wall so it's not just pushed away when the spring is installed.

Basically, enough so it looks like it will give a continuous film once the spring is fitted and starts slipping.

 

Hmm, i might try 3 dabs instead of five. Let's just pray i can get this mainspring back in without my winder eating it lol. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Lol, i know i don't need the extra 30 degrees of amplitude but i CAN get it. I feel like if i'm not, i did something not up to par. It's not a matter of necessity but learning best practices and getting things done right. 

And hey, good to see ya again! Got the watch bug again and excited to do a couple projects so ill be hanging here a bit more often for awhile. Got my bellmatic sitting here in pieces, got my grandpas beautiful eta 2451. You got any insight into this? There's gotta be a way to know whether you overgreased a barrel or something? You been doin this longer than me. 

Same here Col .  Its not so much my thing really , its rare for me to open an automatic watch, i like older stuff but not too old, so a bumper automatic is more likely to come my way than a more modern auto. But plenty here that have a ton of experience that will jump in. 

[Birbdad]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Same here Col .  Its not so much my thing really , its rare for me to open an automatic watch, i like older stuff but not too old, so a bumper automatic is more likely to come my way than a more modern auto. But plenty here that have a ton of experience that will jump in. 

I hope so cuz this is driving me nuts. 

Here's my graph

[JohnR725]

12 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I know kluber is very very sticky so maybe you're supposed to use more of it.

Let's look at weird multiparty story of my experience with Kluber P125 The first time I ever used it. It used to be at work we had a so-called head watchmaker. I was working on a Seiko automatic and I asked how to apply the nifty grease and I was given an answer.

Then we used to have a really wonderful YouTube channel called perplxr. The channels still there but the videos are not and one of the videos was on how to lubricate the mainspring barrel of a Rolex watch. So Rolex uses a different lubrication and it almost looks like toothpaste in a way and it goes all the way around the inside of the barrel to me it looks super access. But later on I ask somebody worked on Rolex watches and he said yes that's how that is applied.

Now the so-called head watchmaker who only worked on Rolex watches told me how to use the nifty Kluber P125 Basically the exact same way all the way around the barrel wall so that's what I did because that's what I was told.

So how can you tell if you get good or bad? The purpose of the breaking grease is hold the mainspring in place until enough? Basically of wound the spring up enough that it should slip and it should only slip a certain amount. In the case of the Seiko I was doing I was winding it up and when I reached the breaking part where held to be honest I was really concerned about breaking the screw head off the ratchet wheel and very concerned about whether the breaking grease even slept at all it did but it required a heck of a lot of force so yes you can apply too much of this nifty substance and you have way more breaking up an actual slipping I was very unhappy with my vice. Fortunately the so-called head watchmaker has left us that I don't have to put up with that nonsense anymore.

What's the other extreme? When I was in school I needed breaking grease it was in the instructors door or somewhere I went and grabbed the bottle I applied my breaking grease and I had a problem. Basically the exact same problem one brownish colored bottle of Greece can resemble any other bottle of Greece and this obviously was not breaking grease because when it slipped it slipped a heck of a lot.

If you look at some literature on some automatic watches they will basically tell you to wind the watch up to a certain point in time where it slips and then you can let the power back off to see how many turns of the mainspring you have. Now in the absence of that we could probably work out a new theory of if you are manually wind your watch up until you hear the spring slip and allow the watch to run for 24 hours I'm assuming the watch should run at least 24 hours. If it doesn't you have a problem. But I'm not even sure of that would be 100% right because normally automatic watches don't have to run 24 hours between manual windings.

So yes there is a test somewhere to wind up the watch see how much slips and then figure out if that's within the specifications of whatever we were looking at. Conveniently I can't remember where I've seen that but I've seen it somewhere in the verse

8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

explode

It's amazing how summer comes it's beautiful and nice and this room my man is currently too darn hot. That means that well today I don't care about amplitude at least for this discussion.

3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Here's my graph

One of the problems with 14 page discussions is did you mention which watch this is? Because in a discussion every single watch as far as I'm concerned is unique and it be nice to know exactly which watch are we talking about. Then of course I always like to know the history of brand-new watch vintage watch was running before you service did always nice know the background history of whatever was looking at.

 

 

[Birbdad]

5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Let's look at weird multiparty story of my experience with Kluber P125 The first time I ever used it. It used to be at work we had a so-called head watchmaker. I was working on a Seiko automatic and I asked how to apply the nifty grease and I was given an answer.

Then we used to have a really wonderful YouTube channel called perplxr. The channels still there but the videos are not and one of the videos was on how to lubricate the mainspring barrel of a Rolex watch. So Rolex uses a different lubrication and it almost looks like toothpaste in a way and it goes all the way around the inside of the barrel to me it looks super access. But later on I ask somebody worked on Rolex watches and he said yes that's how that is applied.

Now the so-called head watchmaker who only worked on Rolex watches told me how to use the nifty Kluber P125 Basically the exact same way all the way around the barrel wall so that's what I did because that's what I was told.

So how can you tell if you get good or bad? The purpose of the breaking grease is hold the mainspring in place until enough? Basically of wound the spring up enough that it should slip and it should only slip a certain amount. In the case of the Seiko I was doing I was winding it up and when I reached the breaking part where held to be honest I was really concerned about breaking the screw head off the ratchet wheel and very concerned about whether the breaking grease even slept at all it did but it required a heck of a lot of force so yes you can apply too much of this nifty substance and you have way more breaking up an actual slipping I was very unhappy with my vice. Fortunately the so-called head watchmaker has left us that I don't have to put up with that nonsense anymore.

What's the other extreme? When I was in school I needed breaking grease it was in the instructors door or somewhere I went and grabbed the bottle I applied my breaking grease and I had a problem. Basically the exact same problem one brownish colored bottle of Greece can resemble any other bottle of Greece and this obviously was not breaking grease because when it slipped it slipped a heck of a lot.

If you look at some literature on some automatic watches they will basically tell you to wind the watch up to a certain point in time where it slips and then you can let the power back off to see how many turns of the mainspring you have. Now in the absence of that we could probably work out a new theory of if you are manually wind your watch up until you hear the spring slip and allow the watch to run for 24 hours I'm assuming the watch should run at least 24 hours. If it doesn't you have a problem. But I'm not even sure of that would be 100% right because normally automatic watches don't have to run 24 hours between manual windings.

So yes there is a test somewhere to wind up the watch see how much slips and then figure out if that's within the specifications of whatever we were looking at. Conveniently I can't remember where I've seen that but I've seen it somewhere in the verse

It's amazing how summer comes it's beautiful and nice and this room my man is currently too darn hot. That means that well today I don't care about amplitude at least for this discussion.

So should the bridle slipping always be a tactile thing? I know with seiko barrel completes i can generally feel it. Currently i cannot on this one i'm working on. It just feels like the resistance stops inceasing after maybe 3 or four full rotations. Sounds like that would be an indicator that i overgreased it?

[JohnR725]

10 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

So should the bridle slipping always be a tactile thing? I know with seiko barrel completes i can generally feel it. Currently i cannot on this one i'm working on. It just feels like the resistance stops inceasing after maybe 3 or four full rotations. Sounds like that would be an indicator that i overgreased it?

Stuff like this becomes very subject to the person doing of the test. In the case of Seiko is we get a interesting problem of the original spring usually have a much heavier bridal which in itself provides greater something. Versus the aftermarket which tend to be lighter and people have reported different slipping issues. Which is probably why Seiko gets away with using the grease that they use because designed it for the mainsprings they have versus the aftermarket.

Okay maybe some light reading

 

 

[Birbdad]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Stuff like this becomes very subject to the person doing of the test. In the case of Seiko is we get a interesting problem of the original spring usually have a much heavier bridal which in itself provides greater something. Versus the aftermarket which tend to be lighter and people have reported different slipping issues. Which is probably why Seiko gets away with using the grease that they use because designed it for the mainsprings they have versus the aftermarket.

Okay maybe some light reading

 

 

Yeah, i get how it works but i'm still unsure whether i'm doing anything wrong. 

From the sound of it even if i'm not getting full wind that this would effect power reserve more than amplitude? 

[Birbdad]

So i just did the wind test. 

At least with a STOCK mainspring which this generic is supposed to be a match for it's six rotations of the barrel to full wind. 

I just did that and it was only 3 to full unwind. That seems like a pretty good indicator of premature bridle slippage does it not?

[Kalanag]

6 hours ago, Birbdad said:

…I just did that and it was only 3 to full unwind. That seems like a pretty good indicator of premature bridle slippage does it not?

It is!

There is a problem with the bridle tension imho.

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I just did that and it was only 3 to full unwind. That seems like a pretty good indicator of premature bridle slippage does it not?

I was thinking about this for a automatic watch you should be able to manually wind it up and it should run for 24 hours minimum? So if you're losing 50% of your power when it slips I doubt that you're going to run for 24 hours. So yes I think that's definitely an indication of you have a problem

 

2 hours ago, Kalanag said:

There is a problem with the bridle tension imho.

.This is actually come up for Seiko watches where the original mainspring the bridal is much much heavier or stronger than the aftermarket. Which is why I suspect Seiko can get away with the type a grease the use for breaking grease because of the heavier bridal.

Now not that are not paying attention but which watch are we talking about exactly which mainspring exactly are we talking about? Sometimes it's hard to keep track of all the conversations I can't remember if we actually discussed which watch this is or not.

[Birbdad]

20 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

Now not that are not paying attention but which watch are we talking about exactly which mainspring exactly are we talking about? Sometimes it's hard to keep track of all the conversations I can't remember if we actually discussed which watch this is or not.

This is a 7s26 movement with a general resorts 2377x Mainspring. 

Cousins lists this as the correct mainspring for  some 7XXX movements which should be directly compatible with a 7s26 mainspring. It's also the correct one when i do the sorta classic "Measure the barrel and use this math formula" and also many people here have said it's the correct mainspring and should get the correct amplitude. 

Here's the page for it.  https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/under-100mm-height?code=GR2377X

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

was thinking about this for a automatic watch you should be able to manually wind it up and it should run for 24 hours minimum? 

With 24 hours of reserve that would mean the watch would have been running for 16 hours per the 40 hour specified reserve of a new watch maybe a little more if it was for sure been started with a full wind. How much amplitude would be expected to be lost in that time ? 30 ° maybe. Colin is seeing amplitudes in the 240s in horizonal positions.....so.........might that be about right ? I think i would compare this to another simlar watch that is showing more amplitude and that is more suspect of retaining a full wind and then see where the amplitude is after 16 hours or so with that watch.  I think the issue is Colin wants to see the mainspring fully wound or close to it, its going to be a trial and error of the amount of breaking grease application, providing that is what the problem is and not a weak mainspring bridle giving way to early. Measuring the  bridle thicknesses seiko and cousins might answer some questions, and the possibility of swapping the bridles over might solve it, if its possible for colin to do that ?

Edited July 19, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[Birbdad]

On 7/19/2024 at 2:28 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

With 24 hours of reserve that would mean the watch would have been running for 16 hours per the 40 hour specified reserve of a new watch maybe a little more if it was for sure been started with a full wind. How much amplitude would be expected to be lost in that time ? 30 ° maybe. Colin is seeing amplitudes in the 240s in horizonal positions.....so.........might that be about right ? I think i would compare this to another simlar watch that is showing more amplitude and that is more suspect of retaining a full wind and then see where the amplitude is after 16 hours or so with that watch.  I think the issue is Colin wants to see the mainspring fully wound or close to it, its going to be a trial and error of the amount of breaking grease application, providing that is what the problem is and not a weak mainspring bridle giving way to early. Measuring the  bridle thicknesses seiko and cousins might answer some questions, and the possibility of swapping the bridles over might solve it, if its possible for colin to do that ?

I would be shocked if you can swap bridles, they're riveted in. This movement/mainspring combo is used by many members here. I would think it's just trial and error with the breaking grease. I just got the thing reset and am struggling to get the arbor in but i'll know soon if that is my problem at all.

Troubleshooting the underwinding issue seems easy enough. Not entirely sure how to troubleshoot OVERWinding if i used too little BG. Basically i put 5 little smears before, this time i tried lowering it to three.

[HectorLooi]

I had that problem before when I first switched to using braking grease. I could actually hear the mainspring go "kerchung" and would lose significant amount of power.

I also tried using less braking grease, thinking that it would cause less slippage, but I discovered that that made it worse. 

So I followed Seiko's way of applying braking grease - generously and smearing it all around the barrel wall. I don't seem to hear the "kerchung" anymore.

[Birbdad]

12 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I had that problem before when I first switched to using braking grease. I could actually hear the mainspring go "kerchung" and would lose significant amount of power.

I also tried using less braking grease, thinking that it would cause less slippage, but I discovered that that made it worse. 

So I followed Seiko's way of applying braking grease - generously and smearing it all around the barrel wall. I don't seem to hear the "kerchung" anymore.

Hmm i think the issue iw as having was that too much was making the bridle just constantly slip. Were you using seiko or generic mainsprings?

[HectorLooi]

I was using the original mainspring. 

Try smearing the grease into a thin, even layer all around. Don't leave it in blobs.

[rjenkinsgb]

I suspect that once the spring starts slip, it will distribute the grease around barrel wall - and squeeze out any excess to the sides.

After a few slips, the main factor affecting the slip force will surely be the grade of grease rather than the amount (unless there is too little & you get direct metal-to-metal contact, causing wear)?

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I would be shocked if you can swap bridles, they're riveted in. This movement/mainspring combo is used by many members here. I would think it's just trial and error with the breaking grease. I just got the thing reset and am struggling to get the arbor in but i'll know soon if that is my problem at all.

Troubleshooting the underwinding issue seems easy enough. Not entirely sure how to troubleshoot OVERWinding if i used too little BG. Basically i put 5 little smears before, this time i tried lowering it to three.

Ideally col, yes finding the corect amount of grease or another grease that works for the bridle you have, i would think there is a sweetspot achievable, i wonder how long that sweetspot remains consistent over time ? I think the bridle would be spot welded ? But could still be drilled out and rivetted onto another mainspring with the right tools, wokld make for an interesting experiment

48 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

I suspect that once the spring starts slip, it will distribute the grease around barrel wall - and squeeze out any excess to the sides.

After a few slips, the main factor affecting the slip force will surely be the grade of grease rather than the amount (unless there is too little & you get direct metal-to-metal contact, causing wear)?

I thought similarly Rob. I dont know much about autoworks they're a different advancement period for the watches i like to repair. But i dont see these as breaking greases , slipping greases ?  Slipping moment greases ? . Its the moment that the grease allows the mainspring to slip thats important isn't it ?

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Hmm i think the issue iw as having was that too much was making the bridle just constantly slip. Were you using seiko or generic mainsprings?

Have you measured the 2 bridle thicknesses for a comparison ? Or checked them for stiffness ? Each may need a different type of grease, if the cousins is thinner and weaker an oil might even work better.

Edited July 21, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[Birbdad]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

Have you measured the 2 bridle thicknesses for a comparison ? Or checked them for stiffness ? Each may need a different type of grease, if the cousins is thinner and weaker an oil might even work better.

I have no idea where i'd even start. I"m using 8217. From what i understand this is sorta the classic general braking grease. 

That said. I reset the mainspring used the 3 little smears so a good bit less. It got me about 10 degrees of amplitude and i get about 4 winds now till empty. 

Ugh....sorta at a loss. Can ANYBODY who uses 8217 weigh in? Starting to wonder if this mainspring is just not fit to task or if the issue lies elsewhere. I can't imagine i could have screwed up the oiling this bad. iv'e redone quite a bit of it, added more here and there just for trouble shooting. 

 

That said i'm getting a full 25 degrees less amplitude in dial up position for...some reason. Maybe i did somehow brainfart and just totally botch the oiling on this one. 

3 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

I suspect that once the spring starts slip, it will distribute the grease around barrel wall - and squeeze out any excess to the sides.

After a few slips, the main factor affecting the slip force will surely be the grade of grease rather than the amount (unless there is too little & you get direct metal-to-metal contact, causing wear)?

Yeah, i overwound it to try to distribute the braking grease a bit. 

Still getting low amplitude.

Edited July 21, 2024 by Birbdad

[nickelsilver]

Moebius makes a few different braking greases.

8212 Glissalube B; good for aluminum barrels, medium braking

8213 Glissalube A; good for brass barrels, strong braking

8217 Glissalube 20; they do say it's "soft", I guess that refers to its braking ability. Generale purpose.

 

Back in the day I used either Glissalube A or B, depending on the barrel. Then I got some super good grease from Generale Ressorts, that's like tar, and it works awesomely (but you have to have an account wtih them to get it apparently). The next best thing I've used is Kluber P125, which is painfully expensive (as all their greases are) at close to 100 bucks for 5ml  . If I was avoiding Kluber, and needed stronger braking, I would get some 8213, Cousins has it for a couple sawbucks for 20ml.

Edited July 21, 2024 by nickelsilver

[Birbdad]

4 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Moebius makes a few different braking greases.

8212 Glissalube B; good for aluminum barrels, medium braking

8213 Glissalube A; good for brass barrels, strong braking

8217 Glissalube 20; they do say it's "soft", I guess that refers to its braking ability. Generale purpose.

 

Back in the day I used either Glissalube A or B, depending on the barrel. Then I got some super good grease from Generale Ressorts, that's like tar, and it works awesomely (but you have to have an account wtih them to get it apparently). The next best thing I've used is Kluber P125, which is painfully expensive at close to 100 bucks for 5ml  (as all their greases are). If I was avoiding Kluber, and needed stronger braking, I would get some 8213, Cousins has it for a couple sawbucks for 20ml.

Ugh, i used this stuff for this same movement in the past but it was not with a generic mainspring....perhaps i need stronger braking