Watch only works when dial is face down

[jolax]

Hi guys,

I was trying to regulate my Seiko watch with 4R36 movement. After tinkering for a while (regulating back and forth several tries), the watch suddenly stopped moving. However, if I put the dial down, it engages and the second hand moves but if I put thedial up or even crown at 6 o'clock position, the balance wheel stops moving. Do you think I could have messed up the balance wheel assembly or the fork here? I have done a few watches with regulating the movement and have been successful. I messed up 1 Seiko movement also with 7S26 movement and I also did not have success regulating Miyota 9019. This Seiko 4R36 is my third watch I would say that I did not accomplished well. Initially I was able to get it to like 7-8spd with 0.7 ms beat error but I was too ambitious trying to get the beat error to less than 0.3ms and this sh*t happened.

So since I am a hobbyist, I am eager to improve my skill here by trying to repair it. However, I would like to get some guidance from watch repair experts here what to replace here and where would be a good place to buy parts for Seiko movement. Would it be more economical to buy the whole movement and take the parts or just get the exact parts I needed. 

Agains, thanks in advance for those who can provide some direction here. Looking forward to hear from anyone.

Cheers! 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, jolax said:

After tinkering

Not a good description of what you are doing?

A unfortunate problem and watch repair is that it requires good eyesight skills. The problem here is it would be nice to have pictures otherwise we get to guess. We could guess all kinds of bizarre an interesting problems like classically if it only runs either dial up or dial down you broke the pivot on on the side that it doesn't run. But these watches have a shock protection system so you'd have to try really hard to do that.

1 hour ago, jolax said:

the watch suddenly stopped moving

Now I assume it just didn't stop all by itself in other words you are standing back in a distance and suddenly it just stops I'm assuming you are doing something tinkering at the time and then it stopped?

We really would need a decent picture but probably you relocated they hairspring someplace it shouldn't be and that is probably your problem but that is a wild guess based on me guessing without actually seeing the watch.

Then what exactly are you using to regulate these watches like timing app etc.?

Which you need to do is develop a skill of knowing what the watch is supposed to look like so you can tell what it looks like when it's not right? In other words if we have a watch that you haven't tinkered with look at the balance wheel look at the hairspring notice how it opens and closes in a beautiful fashion they hairspring is supposed to not be touching the balance arms for instance that would slow things down or even cause at the stop. So compare your running watched your nonrunning watch it would also be really nice to have a close-up picture of the balance wheel hairspring on the nonrunning watch

 

[Melt]

Hate to say it you probably broke the balance staff in the upper jewel. 

This requires a new balance complete which will be difficult to fit to a balance cock unless you have good watch repair skills.

 

[jolax]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Not a good description of what you are doing?

A unfortunate problem and watch repair is that it requires good eyesight skills. The problem here is it would be nice to have pictures otherwise we get to guess. We could guess all kinds of bizarre an interesting problems like classically if it only runs either dial up or dial down you broke the pivot on on the side that it doesn't run. But these watches have a shock protection system so you'd have to try really hard to do that.

Now I assume it just didn't stop all by itself in other words you are standing back in a distance and suddenly it just stops I'm assuming you are doing something tinkering at the time and then it stopped?

We really would need a decent picture but probably you relocated they hairspring someplace it shouldn't be and that is probably your problem but that is a wild guess based on me guessing without actually seeing the watch.

Then what exactly are you using to regulate these watches like timing app etc.?

Which you need to do is develop a skill of knowing what the watch is supposed to look like so you can tell what it looks like when it's not right? In other words if we have a watch that you haven't tinkered with look at the balance wheel look at the hairspring notice how it opens and closes in a beautiful fashion they hairspring is supposed to not be touching the balance arms for instance that would slow things down or even cause at the stop. So compare your running watched your nonrunning watch it would also be really nice to have a close-up picture of the balance wheel hairspring on the nonrunning watch

 

When I said tinkering, I was referring to my attempt to regulate the movement to make it more accurate and also the beat error by shifting the spring stud and the regulator and of course with the help of timegrapher. I think I might have pushed the stud too far or too fast that it may have affected the balance staff in the upper jewel like Melt mentioned. I think it makes sense to me that that might be culprit. I moved the stud and the regulator using a toothpick. I will try to get a close up pictures if I can with some magnification. 

[jolax]

8 hours ago, Melt said:

Hate to say it you probably broke the balance staff in the upper jewel. 

This requires a new balance complete which will be difficult to fit to a balance cock unless you have good watch repair skills.

 

If this is the bad part, what do you reckon to change here? Should I get the whole balance wheel complete with stud?

[Melt]

Well first I would verify that the staff is broken by removing and checking pivots. But from what you have added I would move the the regulator arm and beat arm into original positions and see if it runs. 

Also gently touch the balance wheel with toothpick does it have excessive movement? 

 

[Rowbear23]

sometimes you can get the stud carrier so far out of whack it will make the watch stop. It could be a broken pivot but I would think it's more likely to be something with the hairspring. That's where a close up photo would help.

[Nucejoe]

 A piece of thin wire is your tool to check the balance wheel with, if the balance wheel tilts you have a pivot broken or out of its jewel hole. 

[watchweasol]

Hi You seem to have got plenty of advise so I will just add  the balance complete is £24.85  @ cousins and the movement complete is £78.15 again at cousins. I have also attached the tech sheet for your watch.

9022_4r35b_4r36a (2).pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 5/15/2021 at 3:26 PM, jolax said:

Hi guys,

I was trying to regulate my Seiko watch with 4R36 movement. After tinkering for a while (regulating back and forth several tries), the watch suddenly stopped moving. However, if I put the dial down, it engages and the second hand moves but if I put thedial up or even crown at 6 o'clock position, the balance wheel stops moving. Do you think I could have messed up the balance wheel assembly or the fork here? I have done a few watches with regulating the movement and have been successful. I messed up 1 Seiko movement also with 7S26 movement and I also did not have success regulating Miyota 9019. This Seiko 4R36 is my third watch I would say that I did not accomplished well. Initially I was able to get it to like 7-8spd with 0.7 ms beat error but I was too ambitious trying to get the beat error to less than 0.3ms and this sh*t happened.

So since I am a hobbyist, I am eager to improve my skill here by trying to repair it. However, I would like to get some guidance from watch repair experts here what to replace here and where would be a good place to buy parts for Seiko movement. Would it be more economical to buy the whole movement and take the parts or just get the exact parts I needed. 

Agains, thanks in advance for those who can provide some direction here. Looking forward to hear from anyone.

Cheers! 

Hi. Maybe a bit late for me to weigh in on this but this is my first post and just wanted to get something  out there and make my mark so to speak. Relatively  new to watch repair but I do have a pretty good logical mechanical  engineering  based mind and learn very fast. First thing I would ask myself would be, could it be something  I've done to make it stop working. If so what did I touch last before it stopped. This should point you in the right direction. You were regulating the watch, so the balance area should be your first suspect. Do you think you were at all heavy handed while doing this. Hair spring damage could easily  go unnoticed, balance pivot damage not so much unless you removed balance. Did you touch balance screw ? Did you catch the balance wheel with finger or regulating tool. If no then accidentally  damaged hairspring or if you are lucky a fibre fell from you onto the hairspring or possibly  moisture  from you contaminating hairspring.  You really need to get in there and check that the hairspring is capable  of fully functioning and has nothing fouling it. Sorry for such a long post, apologies  now to all members, I'm very thorough to the point of analism

[watchweasol]

Hi Following the guide lines already mentioned  when adjusting the regulator have you deformed the balance spring , is it out of flat, touching coils. have you disturbed the beat setting in respect to the regulator.  One thing you can do is to remove the balance and check that the pivots are in good shape and not bent or broken from your description it sounds likley one is broken.

[KarlvonKoln]

Um...this may be a dumb question...but, uh...is the hour hand on too tight/too far down?

Face down, and with no dial washer, it would run fine. Dial up, the hour hand would drag, and then everything depends on the strength of the mainspring. 

Truly, I would check the balance out thoroughly first, but if it isn't that, then the hands would be my next thing.