Help identifying a movement - Waltham wristwatch

[aoleite]

Hello guys,

I'm a newbie in the forum, and to watchmaking in fact. I would sincerely appreciate if you guys could help identifying a movement in a Waltham wristwatch I've owned for a couple of years. While I am an expat and do not know a local watchmaker who could assist me with this, I see it as an opportunity to learn about horology. My next step will be purchasing a pocket watch movement to disassemble and reassemble. I've downloaded the tool guide and the illustrated glossary of parts shared in this forum, and intend to use them as references.

Back to the Waltham wristwatch, it was given to me about two years ago, by a friend who knows I have a small collection of Swiss mechanical watches. I took it to a local watchmaker, and I've been told it's missing pieces and I should purchase a new movement for it or at least the pieces it is missing. Due to communication difficulties and possibly a lack of interest on the part of the watchmaker, I did not manage to receive information on the movement model or the pieces missing.

I have inspected the movement, and attached pictures below. It was made by/for Waltham, has 25 jewels and is unadjusted. The dial shows seconds and date (day names and numbers). Behind a wheel, there are very small numbers I couldn't read properly, except fot the last line which reads "1908". I sincerely do not know if the information I am providing is enough, but I would sincerely appreciate your help.

Andy

[watchweasol]

Hi Under the balance wheel there is usually a logo and a number these are the maker of the movement and the caliber number, both of which are relavent/required when ordering or identifying parts. From what I can make out there are two letters  BH if you could confirm the maker and caliber then members may be able to identify the watch and provide extra assistance.   Cheers

[Nucejoe]

Looks a AS 2066 to me.

You can google AS 2066 out of ranfft's site and  compare both images.

[WatchMaker]

Based on the AS observation from Nucejoe then you're probably actually looking at an AS (A Schild) 1906 (you've read 1908) which is in the same family as the 2066.

Parts missing? Mmm. Wouldn't necessarily be taking that as fact.

[Nucejoe]

AS is a famous brand so wouldn,t miss a chance to put its trademark and calibers on its products (usually under the balance as weasol said) unless waltham has its own designation for this piece.

A hallmark of AS is its winding wheel with holes to access a jewel underneath for oiling. 

We need to find the OP first to get more pix. lol

 

[aoleite]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your replies! WatchMaker and Nucejoe, you are both correct and I appreciate your input.

I reinspected the watch, this time using a reversed camera lens as an improvised magnifier. The following is engraved under the balance :

AS (logo)
1902/03
1906

Does this means it is a 1906 movement? What about the other information engraved? 

Thanks again.

Edited February 2, 2021 by aoleite

[Nucejoe]

Yes its non other than AS 1902/03 movement.  So AS trademark is a famous one.

Familiarize with Dr ranfft database.       Google    AS 1902 & AS 1903 , to see a list of variants to this family of movements, lots of parts are interchangable between its members. 

Other engravings are not of concern now.

Regs

Joe

 

 

[WatchMaker]

Hi @aoleite. I'm conscious I'm in danger of just repeating what Joe has already said but noting you're a newcomer let me expand a bit on Joe's information:

- Watches usually come in 'families'. So a watch movement will typically have a base model. Additions - auto wind mechanism, day, date and so forth give rise to different model numbers in that family.  But typically they are building on a base.
- In terms of finding useful information on a movement, and that family information, then the ranfft.de website is a goldmine!

- Here's the information for your movement as an example: http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&AS_1906. As a 1906 this means a 21600A/h automatic movement with day and date functions.

- And because of the family nature of movements it means that in a lot of cases (but not all) things are modular ... the additions just build on the base. It also means that base parts are interchangeable.

- It also means if you can't find information on your exact movement number then searching around the family can bring results. Go to YouTube and search for, say, "as 1906 movement" and nothing much useful comes up.  But now swap that 1906 to 1900 in your search phrase and you'll find a lovely three part video series directly related to your base movement! 

[aoleite]

@WatchMaker, thank you for the clarification. As a newbie, I very much appreciate the detailed information. I am now planning on disassembling the watch, so I can identify the missing parts (if that's the case). It will take me a while, but I will eventually post more info here.

Meanwhile, I still find the reference numbers confusing and I hope you can help me out with a bit more info. As I understood, my watch movement has two "names": 1902/03 and 1906. and by that I mean movements 1902/03 and movements 1906 are exactly the same thing.

I have read the data sheets and compared the pictures on Ranfft Watches , but paradoxically it increased my confusion. On the one hand movement AS 1902 looks similar to my own movement, but their specs differ. And on the other hand movement AS 1906's specs match my own's (25 jewels, day, date), but it looks slightly different from it.

[WatchMaker]

Hi again @aoleite

Whilst there is a general standardisation that manufacturer and a model indication appears under the balance, the latter aspect varies depending on the whim of the manufacturer.

Here is the ID from a 1902:

As you can see it has the same 1902/03 you see. My guess in your case is that the addition of a day came sometime down the road and with a large stock of existing general 1902/03 plates AS just added a 1906 stamp underneath to indicate the specific model. That is your model i.e. you specifically have a 1906 but this is based on the 1902 (as is the 1903). This guess is also informed by the fact that I can find an AS with just a 1903 stamp on!:

In this case AS just stamped the exact model on ... the assumption to me here being that AS had a large order of 1903s to complete and thus it was viable to change tooling to put the exact model on for that run!

The point is don't worry about how those IDs are appearing on your particular movement. A movement can only be one model because of its makeup and we're saying yours is definitely a 1906. But of course that just means changes on the dial side because of the day and date aspect. The bridge/workings side should be the same for any 1906 (don't worry about watch brand markings on rotor or similar); where do you feel you're seeing differences?

If it helps here are pictures from a service of a 1906: https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/library?action=show_photos&wat_id=1267. This might give you the confidence to see what's involved.

My gut instinct is there are no pieces missing on your movement by the way. Why would there be unless someone disassembled the movement and missed out a random part on reassembly it. Is that likely? Far more likely the movement just needs a good service.

Anyway, what's the current situation? Is it fully wound but not beating? Does it wind but noticeable slip so the mainspring isn't holding power? Have you an air puffer you can gently coax the balance wheel with ... does this oscillate smoothly?
If you do take anything apart take lots of pictures. When you're starting out it's easy to think "I'll remember where that goes" but that confidence can fade weeks later when reassembling! 
 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Furthure to above,   you see Dr ranfft lists AS 1902/ 03 & 1906 as a new generation of the family, all members beat at 21600 per hr.

So the escapement is the same on all three members therefor escapement parts are interchange between 1902/1903/1906  regardless of bridge layouts.

First member of the family 1902 offers higher beat to the market, couple of years later a new feature is needed to keep bringing customers in, so a date complication is added and a new memeber; 1903 is borned, by the same token day complication comes and 1906  to attract newer customers. So apart from complications, all other parts interchange between members of this  generation,1902/1903/1906, in addition,  parts( other than those of escapement) of the BASE caliber 1712/1713 ......( interchange with new the  generation as well ) fork arbour might interchange too.

 Hope this helps to gather more out of  Dr ranfft database.

Best wishes.

Joe

 

 

 

[Watchtime]

Along with watchmaker, I am interested too in the movement  what is not working, does the balance move, do the gears turn when you move the oscilating weight, do the gear have broken teeth...?

[aoleite]

Hello again guys! @WatchMaker thanks a lot for you patience and detailed information. I now can see how the markings evolve and the reason why my watch movement has more than one reference number stamped on it.

As for my watch's current situation (@Watchtime also asked about it), from my lay point of view this is what is happening:

1. The minute and hour hans respond to the crown being turned clockwise or counter-clockwise, even when the the crown is depressed.

2. When the crown is turned, the day indicator changes every 24h, but the date indicator does not move at all (it is stuck at 18, please see picture below).

3. The day indicator on the dial behaves strangely. As I turn the crown clockwise, the day’s name gradually appears from about 11:55, and then suddenly disappears at 12:45. If then I turn the crown counter-clockwise, the process repeats but reversed: the previous day’s name slowly reappears backwards and then suddenly disappears again.

4. The crown/winding stem comes loose easily when pulled, and therefore I cannot wind the watch manually, if that was ever possible. For the same reason, I also can't move manually the day and date indicators.

5. The rotor’s movement does not prompt the balance to start moving. Rotating it a dozen times to either side has no visible effect besides rotating one of the wheels (the fourth wheel? Please see picture below).

6. Rotating the rotor seems to store energy, though. When I gently shake the movement, the balance starts moving. I hear the watch ticking, and the second, minute and hour hands move normally. It ticks for a few seconds to up to one hour, but never more than that.

[Nucejoe]

Needs a  complete tear down.

First we need a datasheet, then taking pictures at all stages of tear down is always useful. You can carry out some tests as you disassemble.

- Remove the auto device, thats the rotor attached to winder module, you would then have the manual wind movement, ratchet screw will easily be accessable, try to wind fully through the ratchet screw with a wide blade screwdriver or knife blade. give it a full wind, you have a chance to bench test and see how long it runs without the auto device.

- Remove, hands and the dial plate, then put the movement inside a clear plastic bag ( this is when springs start flying out of sight) and remove day date plates.  PICTURES  and keep us posted please. 

Regs 

Joe

 

 

 

 

[watchweasol]

Hi If you require the tech sheet for the AS 1903/03  AS1712/13 (base caliber) let me know I have them on the system.

[WatchMaker]

Okay so the good news @aoleite is the watch works in that it ticks away if you can get enough power to the mainspring.

You're having to apply this winding power via the automatic mech though because the whole expected interaction via the crown is screwy; winding, date etc. 

This means some part within the 'keyless works' has been damaged. The attached image is for your movement and what's called the 'setting lever spring' is a weak part on these so may be the culprit. That's the large part at the top in the pic and specifically the weak spot is the thin piece of the part running north-east with the bulbous end. This fatigues over time and breaks away meaning the expected snapping into position of the adjoining setting lever is compromised. That's why you're finding you can only do certain things. Those keyless works are effectively fixed in the function of when the part failed.

All very fixable though. And that's dial-off time so great advice from @Nucejoe. 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by WatchMaker